1525
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
OFFICIAL REPORT
Wednesday, 12th July, 2000
The House met at 9.00 a.m.
[Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair]
PRAYERS
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Mr. Osundwa: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not received the written answer to the Question I am
about to ask.
Question No.345
UTILISATION OF NYAYO
WARDS HARAMBEE FUNDS
Mr. Osundwa asked the Minister of State, Office of the President:-
(a) what happened to the money collected by wananchi in Kakamega District more than ten
years ago, for a Nyayo Wards Harambee, which did not materialise; and,
(b) what was the total amount collected.
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Maj. Madoka): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I apologise. I
thought this answer had actually been sent yesterday.
Mr. Osundwa: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. At exactly 9.00 a.m. today, I checked with
the office where these Questions are received, but up to that time no answer had been received by the office of the
Clerk of the National Assembly. Could the Minister explain what he means by saying that he thought this answer
was supplied yesterday?
The Minister of State of State, Office of the President (Maj. Madoka): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my
officers told me that they had sent the answer. So, I will find out what went wrong, but that is what they told me.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) The money was banked in a fixed deposit account which matured in March, 2000.
(b) The total amount collected in 1998 was Kshs1,560,000. With interest, as of 20th March, 2000, this
account rose to Kshs3,596,099.25.
Mr. Osundwa: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this money was collected more than ten years ago by wananchi,
who were told that His Excellency the President would come to officiate at a Harambee for Nyayo Wards. Western,
perhaps, is the only Province without Nyayo Wards. Could the Minister tell this House why it has taken so long to
hold this Harambee? It has taken more than ten years. Why has he not explained to the wananchi why this
Harambee was not held?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I cannot exactly say why the Harambee was not held, but
certainly, I am aware that the Harambee failed to take place. When it failed to take place, the District Health
Management team proposed to the District Development Committee (DDC) that the money be used to construct
amenity Nyayo Wards at the Provincial General Hospital. The request was approved and consequently, the District
Tender Board adjudicated tenders for the construction and awarded it to a construction company. The construction
started last month and it is at the foundation stage.
Mr. Sifuna: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this money was collected from the wananchi and it has nothing to
do with the Ministry of Health. If the Harambee did not take place, the alternative was for those Government
officers concerned to be asked to refund the money to wananchi. Could the Minister tell this House whether
wananchi were consulted with regard to putting up another building.
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I cannot say whether wananchi were consulted, but as I said,
the District Health Committee discussed the issue wit the DDC. So, one would have thought that the members of
the DDC would have done some consultation.
1526
Mr. Osundwa: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this money was collected in the entire Western Province. Could
the Minister tell us which DDC adjudicated on this money? Why did it leave out other districts? Which district is
he talking about?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am talking about Kakamega District. That is my
understanding.
(Mr. Parpai consulted with hon. Obwocha)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Parpai, if you want to go and talk to hon. Obwocha, then you should go
round and talk to him at the Back Bench. You should not behave as if you are in a public place.
Mr. Muturi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister does not deny that the money was collected from the
entire Western Province. He has also said that Kakamega DDC authorised the construction of some amenity wards
at the Provincial General Hospital. Here is a clear case where certain Government officers have deliberately
flouted all accounting rules. Could the Minister undertake to investigate and take the appropriate disciplinary
action against the officers within Kakamega District who are responsible for this situation?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from what has been said, in fact, maybe, the decision was right.
The money was used to construct a ward for the Provincial General Hospital and not a District Hospital. So, if
indeed, the money was collected for the whole Province, then it has been put into proper use.
Mr. Osundwa: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Now that this money was collected in preparation for a
Harambee which has not been held for the last 12 or so years, could the Minister tell this House when the
Harambee will be held? Kshs3 million is not enough for a project like that one.
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I cannot give any definite date.
Question No.487
STATUS OF NBK'S DEBT RECOVERY PROGRAMME
Mr. Obwocha asked the Minister for Finance:_
(a) in view of the fact that a provision for bad and doubtful debts of Kshs15.4 billion was made
in the 1999 audited accounts of the National Bank of Kenya, why the bank found it necessary to
make a further separate provision under note 5 in the accounts, for Kshs500 million as losses;
(b) what the losses are; and,
(c) what the current recovery programme of the bank is.
The Assistant Minister for Finance (Mr. Marrirmoi): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a)The Kshs15.4 billion referred to relates specifically and only to loans and advances. The amount is the
end balance of the total provisions for bad and doubtful debts at the end of the financial year. It should be noted
that the net increase in bad and doubtful debts provision was only Kshs3.4 billion, which, when added to the
opening balance of Kshs12 billion, gives the Kshs15.4 billion as the end of year balance. The detailed movement
of this figure is well explained in note 15 of the bank's annual accounts as follows:-
KSHS
Balance brought forward 12,037,583.000
Provisions made during the year 2,891,590,000
Interest suspended during the year  4,079,457,000
Accounts held as provisions in the
previous years, now recovered 149,866,000
Accounts held as provisions in the
previous years now written off 3,402,565,000
Balance carried forward 15,456,205,000
The Assistant Minister for Finance and Planning (Mr. Marrirmoi):
(b) Included in the caption "Other Assets" in 1998 were certain other receivables, as disclosed in Note 17,
which on review for recoverability in 1999, were found to have suffered significant deterioration in value. Typical
items included in this category are items in transit, assets in the bank's foreign currency accounts and items in
suspense accounts. Accounting standards require that the bank reviews such assets for impairment and finding
such impairment in value, to fully provide for the loss in the bank's profit and loss account. The Kshs500 million
charged to profit and loss account in 1999 was, in fact, such an impairment loss. However, for the benefit of the
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1527
bank's shareholders and the users of the bank's financial statements, the provision was shown separately from the
provisions on loans and advances.
(c) The recovery programme has been under implementation from January 1999 and is on-going. A
revised strategic plan for the National Bank of Kenya has been undertaken and will be presented to the board for
deliberation.
Mr. Obwocha: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will appreciate that this is a technical Question which
should have demanded that the Minister for Finance or one of his assistants who is qualified in the line of
accounting like hon. Arap-Kirui, to have answered it. However, let me ask this question:
(Laughter)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Obwocha, if you read your Standing Orders you will see that
"Minister" means and includes an Assistant Minister. Proceed!
Mr. Obwocha: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the more substantive issue is that National Bank provided for
bad and doubtful debts of Kshs50
[Mr. Obwocha]
billion. I have a copy of the audited accounts. Now, they then go ahead and make another provision of Kshs500
million separately somewhere in the accounts. Hon. Marrirmoi says this covers items in transit, assets in the
foreign currency accounts and suspense accounts and he does not give the details of what they are. Now, Mr.
Minister or you are the "Small" Minister, can you tell us this Kshs500 million---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Obwocha, address the Chair!
Mr. Obwocha: You are right, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Through the Chair, could the Assistant Minister
tell this House what are these assets that you are depreciating or deteriorating? Give us a breakdown, please?
Mr. Marrirmoi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you heard the hon. Member trying to belittle or question me.
I am a very good mathematician and if we go to class, I will beat him by far. Know that from today. They are as
follows: We arrived at Kshs500 million because of suspense accounts which amounted to Kshs308,447,000;
revolution of foreign currencies - Kshs179,990 and Stationery Stock.
The additional provision came about because of the issues that I mentioned.
Mr. Angwenyi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has been asked to identify the items
that are covered under those broad headings and, besides, he should be able to know that when they put this
amount of Kshs500 million, they are denying the Government the profit on which it would have charged this
bank. They are denying the Government taxation money which is revenue. Could he tell us exactly what specific
items are covered under suspense accounts and foreign currency accounts when, in fact, the shilling is
depreciating?
Mr. Marrirmoi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the foreign currency accounts, prior to 1999, the volume of
transaction in the bank was very high. A task force was instituted following the understanding under the
consolidated items and resolved. At the end of the exercise, this amount of Kshs308 million was derived. On the
revolution of the foreign currency, the bank's policy has always been to have 100 per cent foreign exchange, but
this means that all foreign exchange liabilities were fully merged with assets held in foreign currency. However,
the cover could not be sustained and the bank was exposed to the tune of Kshs180 million.
Mr. Kombo: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think both of the questions asked by hon.
Angwenyi and hon. Obwocha have been very specific; that we want to know what those items are for us to be able
to appreciate why they are deteriorating. In fact, one would think that deposits should appreciate and not
deteriorate. So, until we know what those items are, we cannot understand what he is talking about these
receivables as depreciating. So, can he tell us exactly what they are?
Mr. Marrirmoi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think I mentioned earlier on the three items which made
the loss.
Dr. Ochuodho: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is very unfortunate. It seems the Assistant Minister was
given about five paragraphs of an answer, and each time a question is asked, he reads one paragraph regardless of
whether it is relevant or not.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Ask your question!
Dr. Ochuodho: My question is: Since it seems clear that the NBK has got problems due to inefficiency
in legal provisions to recover bad debts, why did the Assistant Minister not consider it necessary to bring
amendments to the Financial Bill in the last Budget so that they could have provisions to enable NBK and KCB to
recover those bad debts?
1528 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
Mr. Marrirmoi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree with the Member. The recovery is on and that is why
I mentioned in my last answer that the recovery is on-going.
Mr. Obwocha: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you can appreciate that we are not seeing the answer over the
Kshs500 million. In Note 17, where he says certain items have deteriorated, he mentions the following: interest
receivables; bills and promissory notes, foreign bills discounted and, lastly, deposits and receivables. How can
those deteriorate?
How can those items depreciate to the extent that you are giving a provision of Kshs500 million?  That is
half a billion!  That is what we are asking you!
Mr. Marrirmoi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, those things are open and they are there.  The hon. Member
should not doubt this!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, Mr. Marrirmoi!  The Members can very well see what is in the accounts.
But they are asking you to identify the items that go in to constitute the Kshs500 million.  Why would you like
them to accept that even deposits deteriorate?  Just explain to them.
Mr. Marrirmoi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think I do not have a ready answer for the question.
Mr. Obwocha: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, now that the Assistant Minister has agreed that he does not
have a proper answer, could he go back and come with an answer as to why those items have depreciated?  This
Question should be deferred.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I think I will agree with that.  I will defer the Question to next week.
(Question deferred)
Question No.417
NON-PAYMENT OF ALLOWANCES TO
SECURITY PERSONNEL IN KAJIADO
Mr. Parpai asked the Minister for Planning:-
(a)  whether he is aware that security personnel and chiefs in Kajiado District were not paid for
days worked during the 1999 census; and,
(b)  what action he will take to ensure that they are paid.
The Minister for Planning (Mr. Ndambuki):  Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am sorry I do not have an
answer now.  But the answer is there.  I was in Kisumu and I have just come.  I would like to answer this
Question in the afternoon, Sir.
Mr. Parpai: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.  I have the reply here!  Can I hand it over
to him so that he could use it?
(Mr. Parpai handed over the reply to Mr. Ndambuki)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order!  We will come back to that question later.  Let us move on to the next
Question.
Question No.407
DELAYED PAYMENTS TO SUGAR CANE FARMERS
Mr. Wamunyinyi asked the Minister for Agriculture:-
(a)  whether he is aware that sugar cane farmers contracted by Nzoia Sugar Company have not
been paid for cane harvested and delivered to the factory, amounting to Kshs500 million; and,
(b)  when the payment will be done.
The Assistant Minister for Agriculture, Livestock and Rural Development (Mr. Khaniri):  Mr.
Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a)  I am aware that payments to sugar cane farmers are in arrears.  As at 30th June, 2000, the debt
owed to sugar cane farmers by Nzoia Sugar Company was Kshs401,842,339.  Since January, 1999, when Shaffer
and Associates took over the management of Nzoia Sugar Company, until June, 2000, Kshs503,807,633 has been
paid. That is in a period of one year.
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1529
(b)  The company expect to be current in its payment to cane farmers by the end of this financial year,
that is by June, 2001.
Mr. Wamunyinyi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, arising from the Assistant Minister's reply, over Kshs400
million is outstanding.  When FC Shaffer and Associates took over Nzoia Sugar Factory, Kshs400 million was
outstanding.  There was a provision in the contract that they would source for money to pay all the arrears due to
farmers.  Could the Assistant Minister tell the House why the arrears have not been paid?
Mr. Khaniri: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I need to correct the impression created by the hon.
Member.  When Shaffer and Associates took over, the debt was not Kshs400 million; the debt was amounting to a
total of about Kshs700 million.  In the period that they have been there, they have been able to pay to the farmers,
Kshs503,807,633.  They have given an undertaking to the Ministry that, by the end of this financial year, they
will have cleared the arrears.
Mr. Kombo: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Nzoia Sugar Company has been in a coma since it started.  By
being in that position, it has impoverished the entire Bungoma District.  The indebtedness which has caused this
problem is due to Government loans and interests that have accrued over the years.  We know that the
Government wrote off Kenya Airways loans and interests.  Could the Government consider writing off the loans
and interests owed by Nzoia Sugar Company, so that it could become a viable entity and get out of the coma?
Mr. Khaniri: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the suffering that the farmers have gone through.
This was due to the previous management of the company.  What the hon. Member is requesting has been put to
the Government.  It is under consideration.
Dr. Ochuodho: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have about seven sugar companies in the country.  Could
the Assistant Minister tell this House the total amount of money due to the farmers from all the sugar companies?
Why should the Government not consider using the Sugar Development Fund to pay off the farmers in all the
seven companies?
Mr. Khaniri: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will agree with me that, that is a very wide question.  If the
hon. Member brings a Question on that, I will do the research and come up with an appropriate answer.  We are
now dealing with Nzoia Sugar Company and I did my research on that factory.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: No!  What about the Government's policy towards sugar cane farmers?  The
Government is the biggest shareholder in most of those sugar factories.
Mr. Khaniri: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government policy is that the farmers should be paid every
month.  But there is an allowance of two months in arrears.  However, we are all aware that, due to some
management problems, some sugar companies violate that policy.
Mr. Khamasi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell this House what the Kenya
Sugar Authority is doing to alleviate the problems of the farmers in Nzoia, in view of what they collect as the
Sugar Levy?
Mr. Khaniri: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Kenya Sugar Authority has been advancing some loans to
Nzoia Sugar Company to enable it to pay the arrears owed to farmers and other creditors.
Mr. Osundwa: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this company is indebted to the tune of Kshs10 billion.  It is
not enough for the Assistant Minister to say that the Government is doing something!  Could he tell this House
what plans he has to financially restructure Nzoia Sugar Company, so that it can be able to borrow money from
other sources to pay the farmers?  Right now, they cannot borrow because of the Kshs10 billion debt.
Mr. Khaniri: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I stated clearly in my first reply, the company's problems
started with the previous management.  The Government has brought in a new management which is working
very closely with the Ministry, to ensure that all the creditors are paid.  We are giving the farmers the first
priority.
Mr. Wamunyinyi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister, in terms of value, tell the
House how much cane was delivered to the Nzoia Sugar Company from January, 1999, to 30th June, 2000?
Mr. Khaniri: It is 65,000 metric tonnes. This is a record in their crushing history because this came up
from 35,000 upto 65,000 metric tonnes since FC Schaeffer and Associates took over.
Hon. Members: How much?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Next Question, Mr. Mwakiringo!
Question No.305
1530 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
PAYMENT OF COMPENSATION TO
MR. MWANGI WACHIRA
Mr. Mwakiringo asked the Minister for Labour:-
(a) if he could explain why Dawood Osman of Davis Mining Company Limited in Mkuki Ranch has not
paid Mr. John Mwangi Wachira compensation under the Workman's Compensation Act after a pit mine
fell on him, and also declined to meet Mr. Wachira's three months' hospitalization expenses at Moi
Hospital Voi; and,
(b)  what action he is taking to ensure that the said Mr. Wachira is paid all his dues.
The Assistant Minister for Labour (Mr. Maizs): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my Minister had answered this
Question and it was deferred. I would like to read it again. However, I beg to reply.
(a) Mr. John Mwangi Wachira did not inform the Labour Office when he was injured on 23rd May, 1999,
while on duty---
Mr. Mwakiringo: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This is the same answer which the
Minister gave me last time. It was deferred because it was not satisfactory, so that he could confirm whether Mr.
Wachira was paid, or not, and what action they have taken against the employer. I cannot accept this same reply
which was deferred last time.
The Assistant Minister for Labour (Mr. Maizs): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate what he said. I
thought I could read out the whole answer to enable him follow us closely. The employer did not pay the
Kshs76,000 he had accepted. On 11th July, which was yesterday, the District Labour Officer registered a civil case
with the Senior Resident Magistrate, Voi Office, following the failure of the respondent, that is the employer, to
pay to the Labour Office in Taita Taveta Workman's compensation to Mr. Wachira. The Workman's compensation
totals to Kshs76,012.30. The application is between the District Labour Officer and the employer, that is, Dawood
Osman of Davis Mining Company Limited in Mkuki Ranch.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the employer was given seven days' notice from yesterday to appear in court and
the hearing date will be set then.
Mr. Mwakiringo: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am still not satisfied because it appears Dawood Osman
himself is playing a game of not paying Mr. Wachira. If the employer had admitted to pay Mr. Mwangi by 30th
June and as of yesterday, he had not been paid, and now that the Assistant Minister is taking him to court, how
can we be sure that, eventually this employer is going to pay?
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, because the Ministry has taken action, we will wait for the seven
days' notice to see whether he is going to meet the deadline and we will take further action.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: What action are you going to take beyond what you have done already?
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, because we have taken the employer to court and if he is not going
to pay, the court will decide.
Mr. Anyona: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you recall the issue that arose last time, it was the [Mr.
Anyona]
fact that the employer did not report the accident, which is a breach of the law. He has also refused to pay, which I
believe is also a breach of the law. I thought that both those matters are criminal. What is this business about civil
case?
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is the employee, who did not report to the Labour Office. The
none payment of Workman's Compensation is not criminal; it is the refusal to pay the compensation.
Mr. Anyona: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The purpose of deferring this Question was
for the Minister to sort out the fact that the employer did not report. That is what the Minister told us. The
Assistant Minister is trying to shift blame on the employee and the law requires the employer to report. He did not
report and that is what we are raising. What action are you taking? That is a breach of the law and it is a criminal
matter.
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I said, action has already been taken. Since the employer did not
pay the Workman's compensation, the case has been taken to court.
Mr. Katuku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not doubting the Assistant Minister on the issue of whether
the case is in court, but I am doubting the officers who are giving him the information. Can he give us the case
number which was filed yesterday?
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the employer was given a seven days' notice. There is no case
number.
Mr. Muchiri: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.  Is the Assistant Minister in order to
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1531
mislead this House by alleging that the case was filed in a Mombasa court and now he is talking about a notice?
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I concur with the hon. Member. I think I will bring forward the
case number. We filed the case at Taita Taveta Workman's Compensation for Mr. Wachira.
Mr. Mwakiringo: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would urge the Chair to defer this
Question because the Magistrate was not in Voi yesterday. The Labour Officer told me that he was going to do the
same, but unfortunately, the Magistrate was not there. Where did he file that notice when the Magistrate was not
there in Voi?
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate that the Magistrate was not there. I also appreciate the
fact that hon. Mwakiringo was there himself yesterday and that we registered, as I said, the civil case yesterday
without the Magistrate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Assistant Minister, Members are asking you to tell them the case number.
Mr. Maizs: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request him to give me time and I will bring the case number.
The Magistrate was not there.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Next Question, Mr. Kathangu!
Question No.402
PAYMENTS TO POWER GENERATING COMPANIES
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Kathangu is not there. The Question is stood over for sometime.
Question No.417
NON-PAYMENT OF ALLOWANCES TO
SECURITY PERSONNEL IN KAJIADO
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Parpai's Question has been deferred to tomorrow afternoon.
(Question deferred)
Question No.402
PAYMENTS TO POWER GENERATING COMPANIES
Mr. Deputy Speaker: For the second time, Mr. Kathangu's Question?  Is he there? The Question is
dropped.
(Question dropped)
QUESTIONS BY PRIVATE NOTICE
DISMISSAL OF KWALE GAME WARDEN
Mr. Kamolleh: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State, Office of the President the
following Question by Private Notice.
(a)  Is the Minister aware that the Game Warden, Kwale, was dismissed for having embezzled public
funds?
(b)  Is he further aware that the said person was later re-employed as a Supervisor of Mwaluganje
Elephant Sanctuary with the approval of the Director of Kenya Wildlife Service?
(c)  What urgent measures is the Minister taking to ensure that the said officer is removed from the
sanctuary?
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Maj. Madoka): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a)  I am not aware of a Game Warden who was dismissed for having embezzled public funds.
(b) I am not aware that this same officer was re-employed by the KWS.
(c)  Arising from my reply in "a" and "b", "c" does not arise.
Mr. Kamolleh: Bw. Naibu Spika, Waziri anaonekana mpaka wakati huu, hajui Shirika la
Wanyama wa Pori (KWS) inafanya kazi wapi---
1532 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
Mr. Deputy Speaker: But, Mr. Kamolleh, you have asked this Question in English?
Mr. Kamolleh: Basi, nitatumia Kiingereza. The Minister is just telling me that he is not aware. Maybe,
he is not aware because he does not know the extent of KWS in this country. The KWS had a Game Warden in
Kwale by the name of Onesmus Macharia. Bw. Macharia aliiba pesa kiasi---
(Laughter)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr. Kamolleh: Mr. Macharia has embezzled public funds to the tune of over Kshs1 million and we all
know that in Kwale District. In fact, most of the money that was pumped into Kwale to build fences against
elephants which were destroying crops in the farms, were embezzled. There was so much outcry that the Director
himself did make sure that the man was sacked. After sometime, this same man campaigned and he was
re-employed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Ask your question!
Mr. Kamolleh: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mwaluganje Elephant Sanctuary is a private communal
sanctuary in Kwale and we have tried our best to make sure that, that sanctuary provides some money for us. Now,
Mr. Macharia has been re-employed in the sanctuary. Why was Mr. Macharia re-employed in this particular
sanctuary and it is a private communal private elephant sanctuary?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I did say first, is that, I am not aware that he was
dismissed, but I am aware of  Mr. Onesmus Macharia, whose services were terminated for failing to efficiently
supervise, monitor and oversee the construction of the electric fence, resulting in a loss of Kshs100,000.
Secondly, he contravened Kenya Wildlife Services (KWS) rules and regulations by employing casual
workers without the Director's authority.
Thirdly, he was also misusing KWS transport and fourthly, there was a breach of financial regulations by
authorizing overpayment of field allowances.
So, I am aware that this officer was there, but his services were terminated, but he was not dismissed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as the Questioner has said, the Mwaluganje Elephant Sanctuary is run by the
local community and it is true that, the local community employed Mr. Macharia. It was not the KWS who
employed him, it was the local community who took Mr. Macharia for employment.
Mr. Mwakiringo: Now that the Minister has admitted that  Mr. Macharia embezzled the funds, what
action did they take and why was he reinstated to the sanctuary?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I did not say that, Mr. Macharia embezzled funds. What I did
say is that, he failed to accounts for the funds. Equally, I did say that, this particular sanctuary is not a KWS affair;
it is the local community who employed Mr. Macharia and we had nothing to do with it.
Mr. Angwenyi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have heard the Minister say that, this person did not
embezzled funds but, he only failed to account for the funds. Mr. Minister, is it possible to account for the money
which you have embezzled? If you are not able to account for the money which you are supposed to manage, is
that not a criminal offence? Are you not supposed to be taken to court?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there was no sufficient evidence to take the man to court, and
that is why his services were terminated.
Mr. Muturi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to plead with the Chair to save Member from the likes of
the Minister because as you have heard, first of all the Minister said that he was not aware of parts "a" and "b" of
the Question. After he has been explained by hon. Kamolleh, he now turns round and says, "he is aware of parts
"a" and "b". This kind of behaviour by Ministers should be discouraged by the Chair giving by very firm
instructions on how they should answer Questions or the Ministers should be compelled---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Muturi, are you going to ask your question or are you going to spend your
time instructing the Chair on what to do?
Mr. Muturi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is important that I raise what I am raising. But be that as it may,
part "b" of the Question clearly states that, the same gentleman was employed by Mwaluganje Elephant Sanctuary
with the approval of the Director of KWS, which falls under this Minister! So, is it right again for the Minister to
say that he is still not aware? Are we not playing a game of musical chairs?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will restate my position. Certainly, Mr. Macharia was not dismissed,
therefore, I am not aware that he was dismissed. What I am aware is that, his services were terminated.
An hon. Member: What is the difference between the two?
Maj. Madoka: There is a difference between the two!
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1533
Mr. Magara:  Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have always said that, actually it is not even morally correct to
be asking such Questions which the Ministers are evading, because the nature of this Government--- It is
appointing people without good
morals in such offices, even when people are complaining!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! The Chair cannot rule on morality!
Mr. Sambu: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. If the man's services were terminated, the
Minister says that his services were put to an end because he was not dismissed. Is he in order to mislead this
House? What is the difference between termination and dismissal? It is all the same because the gentleman should
be out of the service!
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the benefit of the Member, when you are dismissed, you are
normally not given your benefits, but when your services are terminated, you get your benefits.
Mr. Badawy: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think I got it very clear that, the employee has not been
dismissed. At the same time, I also heard the Minister say that, it is the local community that has engaged him. Is
he there on secondment or is he handling two jobs?
Maj. Madoka: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Macharia's services were terminated from the KWS. The
Mwaluganje Elephant Sanctuary is a local community-based organisation which is supported by various NGOs
and this person was employed by this local community and not KWS.
Mr. Kamolleh: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is a lot of going round here, rigmarole and
gerrymandering. The important thing is that, before Mr. Macharia was employed in Mwaluganje Elephant
Sanctuary, the Director of KWS and Mr. Macharia had to talk first of all before he was sent there. There was a
person we had already prepared for that job and they rejected him in order to bring Mr. Macharia there. We do not
want Mr. Macharia there; we want him sacked! We need a guidance in this. It is your Ministry Mr. Minister,
which is actually in charge of KWS and it is the Director who is under you and we do not want Mr. Macharia in
Mwaluganje. If nothing happens, something very drastic is going to happen in Kwale and we do not want this!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Kamolleh! You cannot use this House to threaten other
Kenyans!
Mr. Angwenyi: Let me reframe the question for him!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: No, you cannot reframe the question for him.
Mr. Kamolleh: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, reframing the question is not the issue! We do not want Mr.
Macharia there and he must go!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Next Question, hon. Murungi!
NOMINATION OF KCB DIRECTORS
Mr. Murungi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Finance the following Question by Private
Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that four validly nominated persons for election as Directors to the Kenya
Commercial Bank Board, namely, Messrs. Fredrick Cheserek, Kihara Waithaka, Eng. Hilary Nyanga and Joram
Kariuki were disqualified by the Central Bank of Kenya during the Annual General Meeting on 23rd June, 2000?
(b) What were the reasons for their disqualification?
(c) What urgent steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the wishes of the shareholders of Kenya
Commercial Bank are respected and that the four persons assume office as directors with immediate effect?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Anybody here from the Ministry of Finance?
Mr. Murungi: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Hon. Marrirmoi has just been here and he is
coming!
(Mr. Marrirmoi resumed his seat in the Chamber)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Ministry of Finance!
The Assistant Minister for Finance and Planning (Mr. Marrirmoi): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am
requesting that I be given more time to reply to this Question. I have just seen this Question on the Order Paper
and, I am requesting the Chair to allow us to answer the Question tomorrow.
Mr. Anyona: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister said that he has just
seen this Question on the Order Paper. We all know that Questions are sent to Ministers well in advance. Does he
mean that this particular Question was not sent to him, or what is he talking about?
1534 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
The Assistant Minister for Finance and Planning (Mr. Marrirmoi): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I
confirmed with the person who was supposed to prepare this reply, he was still working on the reply to this
Question. So, the answer to this Question is not ready.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Hon. Marrirmoi, what you have said is hardly satisfactory. This is a
Question by Private Notice, which was delivered to your Ministry last Friday. So, you have had 48 hours within
which to prepare your reply for this Question. So, really, it is not good enough to come here and say that you have
just seen this Question on the Order Paper. Ministers and all hon. Members, for that matter, must come to the
House everyday, prepared to deal with the business contained in the Order Paper without exception. So, really, you
have to apologise, because you do not have the answer. But you cannot blame anybody for that lapse on your part.
The Assistant Minister for Finance and Planning (Mr. Marrirmoi): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I
apologise and undertake to answer the Question tomorrow.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Murungi, is that okay with you?
Mr. Murungi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will not be here tomorrow; I will be out of the country. This is
a very important Question. All the gentlemen referred to in this Question have been disqualified from taking up
directorships of the Kenya Commercial Bank, because they support the Democratic Party of Kenya (DP), and not
because they have not met the professional, or moral, qualifications. Hon. Kariuki is already a director of the
National Bank of Kenya.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Mirungi! Unless you have evidence which supports your
allegation---
Mr. Mirungi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister answer this Question today in the
afternoon?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Mirungi, the Assistant Minister cannot answer this Question today afternoon,
because the Order Paper for that Sitting is already out.
Mr. Mirungi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, then, in that case, I would beg the indulgence of the House to
have the Question answered next Wednesday.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Very well; it will be answered next Wednesday, in the afternoon.
(Question deferred)
Let us proceed to Mr. P.K. Mwangi's Question.
INCREASE ON COST-SHARING CHARGES
Mr. P.K. Mwangi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Medical Services the following
Question by Private Notice.
(a) Could the Minister explain why the Ministry has raised the cost-sharing charges for all Government
hospitals in Central Province?
(b) Could he consider reducing the said rates to enable poor patients access the health facilities?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is the Minister for Medical Services here?
Mr. Gatabaki: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. In view of the importance of the Question
on the Kenya Commercial Bank, which touch on the economy of this nation---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, Mr. Gatabaki! The Question on Kenya Commercial Bank has been
deferred to next Wednesday. We are now on Mr. P.K. Mwangi's Question by Private Notice, which is meant for
the Ministry of Medical Services.
Mr. P.K. Mwangi: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. the Assistant Minister for Health, Dr.
Wako, was here this morning, but when he saw this Question on the Order Paper, he just ran away!
(Laughter)
Mr. Magara: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, Mr. Magara! You cannot stand on a point of order when another hon.
Member is on the Floor, on a point of order.
Proceed, Mr. P.K. Mwangi.
Mr. P.K. Mwangi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister for Health, Dr. Wako, was here. He
withdrew from the Chamber after seeing this Question on the Order Paper. I would like to request for the
indulgence of the Chair for this Question to be answered today, if possible, because the Question---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, Mr. P.K. Mwangi! As I have already stated, the Order Paper for this
afternoon's Sitting is already out. So, the best I can do is to defer this Question until tomorrow.
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1535
Mr. Angwenyi: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Chair is here to assist hon. Members
on both the Government and Opposition sides of this House. As you can see, the Ministers want to fail the
Government; they do not want to answer the Questions being raised here. Could you save the Government by
instructing Ministers to be here on time and give appropriate answers to all the Questions being raised? Otherwise,
our Government will fall.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Angwenyi, you must give that view to your party's Parliamentary
Group Meeting, and not to this House.
(Laughter)
(Question deferred)
Let us proceed to Mr. Kihoro's Question by Private Notice.
ALLOCATION OF GATHIURU/HOMBE FOREST
Mr. Kihoro: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Lands and Settlement the following
Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that parts of Mount Kenya Forest and conservation areas which include
Gathiuru and Hombe Forests have been surveyed and are ready for immediate allocation to individuals?
(b) Could the Minister inform this House how many acres have been surveyed, indicating the sizes of the
parcels and the proposed beneficiaries?
(c) Could he intervene and revoke these allocations of gazetted forests in the interests of preservation of
this vital water catchment and conservation area?
The Minister for Lands and Settlement (Mr. J. Nyagah): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I give my
reply to this Question, I would like to apologise for two things: One, for, internally, referring this Question to the
Minister for Environment when I ought to have tackled it myself. Two, for not providing the hon. Questioner with
a copy of the written reply. I have received the written reply to this Question just a minute ago. I suspect that the
hon. Questioner will complain about this. Having apologised, may I now answer the Question?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Proceed, Mr. Minister.
Dr. Ochuodho: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think it would be important to clarify that
the Minister for Lands and Settlement is answering the Question on behalf of the Minister for Environment. I
appreciate the principle of collective responsibility among Ministers but, according to the Order Paper, the
Question is directed to the Minster for Environment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Dr. Ochuodho! I would like hon. Members to remember what
has happened in this House. Last week, we deferred this Question, because the Minister for Environment did not
have the list of the allottees. I directed, then, that the list must be part of the answer. Now, the only Minister who
can provide that list is that for Lands and Settlement. I, therefore, agree with the Minister for Lands and
Settlement that he can answer this Question, because hon. Members were more interested in the names of the
allottees then. I hope that the Minister for Lands and Settlement will give this House that list this morning.
Proceed, Mr. Minister.
The Minister for Lands and Settlement (Mr. J. Nyagah): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to
indicate that last week's reply given by the Minister for Environment on this Question was not quite correct. So, I
would, now, like to give an authoritative answer.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) I am aware that survey work has been going on for some time in some parts of Mount Kenya,
Gathiuru and Hombe Forests for the allocation to landless individuals.
(b) The exercise ran into a problem, and the survey work was stopped, as the forests had not been
de-gazetted as required under the Forests Act. Therefore, I cannot give the acreage, the size of the parcels and the
proposed beneficiaries.
(c) No allocation has been done. So, there is nothing to revoke.
Mr. Kihoro: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, earlier on, I received a reply to this Question from the Minister for
Environment. I have now received another reply from the Minister for Lands and Settlement.
There is a lot of suspicion about what is happening around Mount Kenya. I have a list of some people
who have been allocated land at Gathiuru Forest. The Provincial Commissioner (PC), Central Province, Mr. Peter
1536 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
Kiilu, has been allocated 1,000 acres of land. He has sub-dived that land parcel into two-and-half-acre plots,
which he is selling at Kshs250,000 each. I have the list of allottees; I can give it to the Minister if he wants it.
(Mr. Kihoro passed the list over
the Table to Mr. J. Nyagah)
Mr. J. Nyagah: I would like to have that list, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am very clear in my reply, that,
since the forests have not been de-gazetted, it is not possible to allocate any part of it to individuals. Whatever my
Ministry has attempted to do with that land, therefore, is not conclusive, and cannot be relied on. So, the statement
about Mr. Kiilu is not be accurate, because the said land has not been allocated to anybody. One cannot allocate
forest land to anybody when that forest has not been de-gazetted. There was an attempt to allocate some people
parts of forests that have not been de-gazetted, but this cannot be valid. That is the point I am making.
Mr. Wamae: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, part of this Hombe Forest is in Mathira Constituency and,
therefore, I have a lot of interest in it. There has been a contradiction between what the Minister for Environment
said and what the Minister for Lands and Settlement is now saying. Could the Minister confirm that no land in
Hombe Forest will be degazetted and sub-divided for allocation except to Mathira Technical Institute and Bishop
Gatimu Ng'andu Girls allotment which had already been done?
Mr. J. Nyagah: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the people of Nyeri have aggressively been pushing for this
land to be allocated to them. Secondly, I wish to confirm that as long as the forest is not degazetted, I will not
allocate land to anybody until the Minister for Environment degazettes the land. As we speak now, that has not
happened and, therefore, I am not able to allocate the land to anybody.
Mr. Murungi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, since the Minister for Environment, hon. Nyenze, is here could
he tell this House whether, as a matter of fact, this forest is going to be degazetted or not instead of beating about
the bush on this issue?
Mr. J. Nyagah: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am in charge of this Question and, therefore, he cannot ask
my colleague to answer it. At the moment, I confirm the forest has not been degazetted.
Mr. O.K. Mwangi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when this Question was answered last week in this House,
the Minister for Environment told this House that some parts of the forest had been degazetted; to my recollection,
over 3,000 hectares have been degazetted. He even went further to name the beneficiaries as Bishop Gatimu Girls
School, Ng'andu, Mathira Technical Institute and other settlement schemes. Now the Minister for Lands and
Settlement is telling us that there has not been any degazettement. Which Minister are we going to believe?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the Minister's information, the question of allotment of land to Bishop
Gatimu Girls, Ng'andu, is over 30 years old and the question of Nyayo Wards in Karatina is over 20 years old and
yet he is telling us that the forest has not been degazetted. Could we have a comprehensive statement of facts on
what is happening on the ground?
Mr. J. Nyagah: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of great pressure from environmental groups,
particularly around Nyeri, we ran into a problem. We would have preferred to have degazetted this particular area
by now and allocated it to hundreds of people from Nyeri who want this piece of land in order to solve the problem
of squatters and landlessness in that particular district. But because it has not been degazetted, we are unable to do
it. I have admitted that we have done a lot of work on the assumption that there could have been degazettement.
But when the degazettement did not take place I ran into a problem. If it is the wish of the people of Nyeri to have
the land degazetted, we will attempt. But at the moment, it is not yet degazetted and I am not able to help the
people of Nyeri.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: We really have to be serious with this Question. When it first appeared on the
Order Paper, it was under the Ministry of Lands and Settlement, and it was none other than this Minister for
Lands and Settlement who said that the Question ought to have gone to the Minister for Environment. Then the
Minister for Environment came here last week and said that this Question ought to have been answered by the
Ministry of Lands and Settlement. Unfortunately, for them the Chair has all the verifications, and I will not accept
a situation where Government Ministers come week in, week out, and tell us different stories. So, I am afraid I
will not accept the reply to this Question today. The Minister should go and co-ordinate himself, put his house in
order and bring us an authoritative reply to this Question. Our HANSARD already shows that the Minister for
Environment stated that there has been degazettement of up to 3,000 hectares for some institutions. So, we cannot
have the same HANSARD showing another Minister contradicting him.
An hon. Member: Hawa ni wakora!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Ministers, kindly go and agree among yourselves who is going to give an
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1537
authoritative answer to this Question next week on Wednesday. Failure to which this must be a subject of further
inquiry by the relevant Departmental Committee.
(Question deferred)
ALLOCATION OF BIGOGO PRIMARY SCHOOL LAND
Mr. Anyona: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Lands and Settlement the following
Question by Private Notice:-
(a) Is the Minister aware that the land Registration MWOGETO/1499 measuring 0.43 hectares in Manga
Division, Central Kitutu Location, Nyakongo Sub-location in Kitutu Masaba was allocated and registered as
public utility by the Gusii County Council on 13th November, 1972?
(b) Is he further aware that the land was utilized for the development of Bigogo Primary School which
started in 1996 and is now (2000) in Standard Five and that the land has been grabbed and the school threatened
with closure?
(c) Could the Minister confirm that the land rightfully belongs to Bigogo Primary School and restrain the
allottee from interference with the development of the school?
The Minister for Lands and Settlement (Mr J. Nyagah): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) I am aware that land Registration MWOGETO/1499 measuring 0.43 hectares in Nyakongo
Sub-location of Central Kitutu Location of Kitutu Masaba Constituency was registered as a public utility by Gusii
County Council on 13th November, 1972.
(b) I am further aware that the land was utilised for development of Bigogo Primary School. I am not
aware that the land has been grabbed and the school threatened with closure.
(c) According to the records in the Kisii Land Registry, the land is registered in the name of Bigogo
Primary School and has not been interfered with by a private developer. The school land is therefore intact.
Mr. Anyona: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the first place, the Minister did not even have the courtesy of
giving me a written reply. But in any case, I am grateful that he has agreed to the facts as stated in the Question.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have a letter here dated 14th April, 2000 from the parents of the school
explaining the circumstances of this school land. With it, they have enclosed a report by the Zonal Educational
Officer of Tombe zone, dated 23rd November, 1999 in which he makes a report to the DO and copies it to the DC
and other people, stating the facts as stated by the parents, that the land has indeed, been "grabbed". They have
even named the "grabber" here. And that, surveyors of this Ministry have been colluding with this person to
deprive the school of the land. I beg to lay this letter on the Table to assist the Minister to resolve this issue.
(Mr. Anyona laid the letter on the Table)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in view of the answer he has given, could he now ensure that on the basis of this
information, he will make sure that this "land grabber" is ejected from the school land?
Mr. J. Nyagah: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very grateful to my former school captain who is also a
Member of Parliament.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Show some respect!
Mr. J. Nyagah: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I take the hon. Member seriously and, therefore, I shall take
appropriate action depending on the information I get. As far as we are concerned, the land belongs to the school.
If anybody is attempting to take it away, it could be an official of the local authority, who could be doing it without
correct information and knowledge since this is a trust land.
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
GRAZING OF LIVESTOCK IN MOUNT KENYA FOREST
The Minister for Environment (Mr. Nyenze): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to give
a Ministerial Statement on grazing of livestock in Mount Kenya Forest.
Due to the current drought afflicting many parts of the country, many pastoralists have been forced by
lack of pastures to move out of their traditional grazing areas in search of green pastures elsewhere. Pastoralists in
Laikipia, Samburu and Eastern parts of Baringo District have been most affected by lack of pastures and they have
1538 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
invaded large-scale ranches in Laikipia East. In order to minimise the conflict between the pastoralists and ranch
owners, the Government has allowed the pastoralists to temporarily graze in Mount Kenya Forest while a solution
is being sought. Currently, there are around 16,000 animals in forests falling under Meru Central District and
about 1,000 in Nyeri District.
Consultations are going on within relevant Ministries with a view to establishing possible ways of
addressing the pasture crisis. My Ministry is aware of the dangers that large-scale grazing can pose to forest
ecosystems and necessary precautions are being taken to mitigate them. These precautions include: limiting the
presence of animals in the forest to day-time only, prohibiting grazing in ecologically-sensitive areas, guarding
against over-crowding in grazing areas and watering points and prohibiting construction of dwelling stone dais in
the forests.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Mwiraria: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we understand why the Government gave authority to the
nomads from the districts he has mentioned to move into the forest, but since they did that, there have been many
of them who take their cattle into peoples' shamba and there have been fights. I would like to inform this House
that the late Angaine's wheat farm of 1,000 acres has been destroyed by the cattle and many water projects have
been destroyed by the herdsmen who break the plastic pipes to get water for their cattle. Could the Government, at
least, take the responsibility of keeping cattle out of peoples' shamba?
The Minister for Environment (Mr. Nyenze): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government has through
the Provincial Administration tried very hard to solve those disputes. It has intervened in areas of conflict to keep
the animals as far off peoples' farms and water points as possible.
Mr. O.K. Mwangi: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. When the Minister was giving the Ministerial
Statement, he talked about limiting grazing to day-time only. I am at a loss as to what would happen to people
who have travelled over 50 kilometres to take their livestock into the forest, and then the Government is limiting
them to day-time grazing only? What will they do at night? On the other hand, I would like to know from the
Minister whether Mount Kenya Forest is open to all Kenyans for grazing?
The Minister for Environment (Mr. Nyenze): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I would like to answer the
last question. Kenyans are not discriminated against grazing in Mount Kenya area, but we have the Maasai who
are desperate because their cows are dying as a result of the drought that we are experiencing. Out of compassion
to secure the lives of these animals, these people were allowed to graze their animals in that forest.
I would also like to say that grazing is allowed during day time because during this time,
our forest guards and Provincial Administration officials will see areas which can be grazed without much
destruction being caused to young trees and so forth. The pastoralists who walk long distances at night are told to
graze their animals during day-time, so that there is least destruction on weaker ecosystems.
Mr. Wamae: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while we would like the Minister to help the pastoralists' cattle
from dying by allowing them to graze in Mount Kenya Forest, would he also ensure that there are veterinary
services there? There is no need to take the cattle there and then all of them die because of ticks and other
diseases. Secondly, would he also ensure that there is no fire in the forest, which can be very dangerous. Let him
send more manpower to that area to ensure that there is no forest fire. Could the Minister also ensure that people
of Kieni, which is also a dry area and is neighbouring the forest can also graze their cattle in Mount Kenya Forest,
because they are also dying due to drought?
The Minister for Environment (Mr. Nyenze): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, those are good concerns by hon.
Wamae. We will ensure that not only grass is available, but also veterinary services. We will also try and address
the question of fires spreading and burning the forest. I would like to say that the Maasai, for some reasons, do not
destroy forests; they are interested in pastures for their cattle. So, in case of fire outbreak, we will also incorporate
them to assist the Government. We will look into the question of other communities living around Kieni and the
dry areas of Nyeri.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Mwiraria: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, due to drought, people are poor everywhere. In Onturiri
Location, we have got several schools, particularly Onturiri Secondary School, whose water has been destroyed
three times and now they are unable to repair the pipes. Could the Government, at least, step in and help to make
sure that the school boys do not have to go into the forest to fetch water?
The Minister for Environment (Mr. Nyenze): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a bit difficult because it
involves the Ministry of Water Development.  We have also tried to teach the pastoralists the need to take care of
properties they find in those areas which do not belong to them, including the water pipes.  They have been
advised through the Provincial Administration not to destroy water pipes.  But for that case of Ntonyiri Secondary
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1539
School, we can take up the matter with the relevant Ministry.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Next Order!
MOTIONS
IMPLEMENTATION OF PRE-FEASIBILITY
STUDY IN TAITA-TAVETA
Mr. Mwakiringo: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-
THAT, in view of the fact that Kenya is experiencing continuous food shortages due to
continued drought; and taking into consideration that water from rivers and lakes could be used
for irrigation and other domestic use, the House urges the Government to implement the
pre-feasibility study undertaken by Afrisco firm of Israel and Coast Development Authority in
1994-1995 in order to pump out water from Lake Challa in Taveta Sub-District for domestic,
irrigation and livestock use in Taita/Taveta District and Nyika plateaus.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me start off by giving a brief history of the lake.  It is a volcanic crater with
fresh water located south-east of the slopes of Mt. Kilimanjaro range, 45 kilometres south-east of the summit and
approximately 10 kilometres north of Taveta on the Kenya/Tazanian border.  It is an interterritorial water
resource shared between Kenya and Tanzania.  It is some 85 to 90 metres deep and covers an area of about 4.5
square kilometres. It has no visible rivers, in or outlets and water is believed to come from the slopes of Mt.
Kilimanjaro through underground water system.  The river capacity is estimated at 300 million cubic metres of
water.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the study was done by Coast Development Authority (CDA) upon inauguration,
to exploit the vast irrigation and agricultural potential in Coast Province.  One of the studies was to produce
enough food for local and export markets and generate wealth and employment to the local people.  It was done in
four parts; one, was the project evaluation in July 1994, the project framework in May, 1995, preliminary
planning; that is, the tunnel study in July 1995 and socio-cultural and economic study which was carried out in
June 1996.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, project objectives were to pump water from Lake Challa to be efficiently utilised
for irrigation using modern and cost-effective methods to grow high potential and valued export-oriented crops, to
supply water for the domestic and cultural use by the inhabitants of the Taveta and Nyika Plateaus.  Secondly, it
was to monitor the sustainability of recharge and discharge rates of water from the lake, to realise its full potential.
The first phase of that project was Kimbila Pilot Project.  This involved pumping 500 cubic metres of water per
hour, believed to cover about 100 hectares for irrigation and a population of over 5,000 would benefit from that
water.  Phase II
was the Challa Site Project.  This was actually to increase the capacity to 1,000 cubic metres of water per hour to
supply the current Challa Irrigation Scheme which is in operation with 500 cubic metre per hour and over 200
hectares would be irrigated with an estimated population of 15,000 people benefiting from that water.  The third
phase was Jipe/Mwakitau Site Project.  This involved the supply of water to 495,000 cubic metres reservoir at Jipe
site and 75,000 cubic metres per hour at Mwakitau reservoir.  This would be used for horticulture, livestock and
for domestic use.  This would cover 75 hectares at Jipe and 71 hectares at Mwakitau for irrigation and a total
population of about 10,500 people would benefit directly.  The fourth phase was Buguta/Kasigau and Kilibasi site.
This involved the extension of water supply to Buguta in Kasigau Location, Kilibasi area of Kwale and Bamba in
Kilifi District also for horticulture, livestock and domestic use.  Most of this would be serviced by gravity.  There
would be no machinery which would be used to pump water because it will all be through gravity.  This will cover
approximately 1,000 hectares of irrigation and over 10,000 people will benefit from the supply of this water.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this water in the lake is part of the regional water body and surface level of the
lake depends on pithometric surface of the aquifer at the locality.  The marked chemicals had a separated
difference between the lake water and downstream springs such as the Njoro Kubwa combined with low estimated
outflow of volume from the lake point against the possibility that the lake is the main source or the direct feeder of
the springs.  The maximum possible permissible volume of water that may be extracted from the lake is not a
limiting factor.  The sub-surface recharge from Mt. Kilimanjaro exceeds 1,000 cubic metres of water per hour
without adversely affecting the lake Challa equilibrium.  So, you can imagine how much water we have in that
lake.  The projected areas would be 402 hectares which are proposed for irrigation.  This will cover 100 hectares
at Timbila, 204 hectares at Challa, 77 hectares at Jipe and 71 at Mwakitau.  The water requirement will be 1,700
cubic metres per hour and approximately 30,000 people would benefit directly from this project.
Since this lake is a volcanic crater, it is completely surrounded by a rim and a short tunnel will have to be
constructed.  The tunnel will account for the water supply lines and provide access to pump stations to the lake
1540 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
and by also enlarging it to accommodate vehicles to pass through for tourism purposes.  The pumping will only be
done to deliver the water to the crater surface.  From there, the water will flow by gravity to Jipe, Mwakitau,
Kasigau, Kilibasi and with a little support, it can also reach Bamba in Kilifi District.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the crop earmarked for irrigation purposes are maize, tomatoes, onions, papaws,
mangoes, citrus fruits and bananas.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me address myself to the benefits of the project.  Water obtained from this
lake would enhance the water supply to on going irrigation project at Challa Location, necessitating food
production for local and export use.  It will also provide irrigation and drinking water for locals domestic and
livestock use.  It will also provide portable and irrigation water to the Jipe Settlement Scheme.  It has a capacity
also to provide water as we said earlier, to Mwakitau Location, Buguta Settlement Scheme and Kasigau Location
and surrounding ranches in Coast Province.  This water can also be regulated by gravity to Kilibasi and Bamba in
Kwale and Kilifi districts, respectively.
This project has an advantage of understanding the environmental and farming practices around Lake
Jipe and Lake Challa on both Kenya and Tanzania sides, because it is an inter-territorial lake which is bordering
the two countries. It will equally enhance regional co-operation through an agreed protocol because we are also
sharing the lake, and definitely, there must be some regional co-operation for us to utilise that water for the
intended purposes in our country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, equally, the project has an eco-tourism and tented camp possibilities for tourism
purposes along Lake Challa and even Mwakitau. I am saying so because we are at a time when poverty is eating
right down into our common wananchi, and as much we would want to alleviate poverty, that project and the
implementation of these studies by Afrisco, in conjunction with the CDA, will go a long way in assisting the
people to alleviate poverty. The region that we are talking about, from Taita Taveta all along to Mwakitau,
Kasigau Location and Kilibasi, is a rich agricultural area, only that it lacks water. If that water is pumped using
the very simple methods, it can feed over 100,000 people directly and indirectly. The good thing with that water
from the lake summit is that it will be through gravity, where it is less expensive to a reservoir in Jipe, and then to
Mwakitau and the other areas that I have mentioned. I am saying so because it is less expensive, and if authority is
given to the CDA, in conjunction with the Ministry concerned, to get the funds and implement that project, it will
go a long way.  The areas that it will traverse are also equally very good for animal farming, and we have a lot of
ranches and a lot of people will benefit. That will also benefit the tourism industry because it will pass along the
national parks bordering Tanzania and other districts in the Coast Province so that the animals in the national
parks, in the surrounding ranches and even the inhabitants along that route will also use the same water. That
water can also be equally utilised using electricity to pump it all the way to Kishushe, towards the Mtito Andei,
Kibwezi and Makueni areas because it has a lot of water.
The studies carried out clearly showed that there is no way that the water equilibrium in the lake will go
down because the water from the slopes of Mt. Kilimanjaro is too heavy and it is equally important that it will
sustain the equilibrium of the lake. This lake also feeds Lake Jipe because the studies done showed that they
coloured the water in Lake Challa, and within six hours, the same colouring appeared in Lake Jipe, which means
we now have two potential lakes which can sustain the people along that route where the water will pass through.
With the projection of opening up of the Taveta-Voi Road through Mwatate, trade will be enormous
along that route, and with the establishment of this project, definitely, we will supply our produce to our
neighbouring countries, apart from other countries outside the East African Community and Africa, which is a
good market, and it will help us alleviate poverty of our people and it will increase animal production in our
region. Again, that will help ease unemployment because many of our youths will be involved in the development
of the small farms which will be given to them, and some of them will, definitely, have to venture into ranching
activities, and it will assist a lot to alleviate poverty. We are in a problem, and if that is not done, our people will
still remain very poor. It is in that context that we are urging the Government to implement that project in
conjunction with the community. We will not want to see such a project being carried out without the involvement
of the community, like it happened with the Mzima Springs, where they did not involve the community, and now
it is not serving the community as required. It has a lot of problems because the water is passing through our
areas, but we are not getting sufficient water to sustain our people for economic and agricultural use.
So, as much as I would want my other colleagues to participate in this Motion, I would at this point invite
hon. Mbela to second it.
I beg to move the Motion.
Mr. Mbela: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to second this very
important Motion, which goes to fulfil part of the Government's policy on poverty alleviation. The country has
relied on rain-fed agriculture during the last 37 years when we attained Independence.  Since that is only 20 per
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1541
cent of the land, the population as it is now, cannot be sustained by that 20 per cent of the land only. It is
important that we explore ways and means by which we can be productive in the remaining 80 per cent of the land
in Kenya.
The arid and semi-arid lands (ASAL) areas, as we commonly know them, are a bit fragile, and yet just as
fertile, if only water can be used. This project of getting water from Lake Challa was conceived at a time when I
was the Minister for Water, and I believe that it would have gone quite far, if squabbles within the district had not
surfaced. This project has become so urgent that, instead of the Government continuously feeding the people
through famine relief, it is important that the people should be given a chance to produce food for themselves.
We have heard from the Mover how the lake gets recharged from Mt. Kilimanjaro, but the beauty of it is
that the 300 million cubit metres of water can be pumped for 365 days in a year; pumping out only 1,700 cubic
metres per hour, and yet the level of the lake will not change. It seems to be a great waste for us to continue to
have that reservoir and not utilise it for the benefit of the people. Hon. Mwakiringo estimated that as many as
100,000 people would benefit and sustain their lives through this project, and the beauty of it is that it will not
only be confined within the Taita Taveta District, but will spill-over to other districts like Kwale and Kilifi,
bearing in mind that this project will cost only a little over a billion shillings. I believe that there can be no better
way of helping the people than utilising that amount of money, particularly, when their lives and whatever else
they live for - education and health - will benefit from the project.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I heard that a very good job is being done by the Coast Development Authority
(CDA) and Prof. Lugogo. It was soon after CDA was inaugurated that they went into all these studies to make sure
that they understood the true potential of what Coast Province could produce. During these studies we have also
become aware of the importance of water management. It is true that this water would come mainly from
Kilimanjaro underground. It is also important to note that in addition to employing some of these expensive efforts
in these very dry areas, some very inexpensive measures like digging of dams and pipes in the area should be done
so that rain water does not have to go to the Indian Ocean. I keep believing that there is no contract between
Kenya and the Indian Ocean for us to fill up the ocean. If we can avoid discharging water to the ocean, we can use
that water to sustain the lives of our people.
ASAL land is fragile, but there is no bad land as you will learn if you visit countries like Israel which is a
lot worse than any part of the Coast that I know of. In any case, I still believe that we should go back to the old
idea we had of the "Ministry of ASAL" instead of only having it as a department in the Office of the President,
where it is only given half attention. It is also important that when we do irrigation, we go to high value products
instead of maize and beans. If we must plant maize, then it should be an issue of propagating seed maize which
can be used to improve agriculture in the other areas.
There was the mistaken belief from some misguided leaders from Taveta that you cannot get water from
Taveta and use it in the rest of Taita. They forgot that Mzima Springs are located in the Taita area of the District.
The water goes to Mombasa and none of the Taitas were consulted. In fact, the water is sold and no revenue is
shared with the District. It is important when we live in one area that we share our resources together. Recently,
the DC got land from the Government and allocated land in Lake Jipe Settlement Scheme. The people are unable
to move to the land because they do not have portable water to sustain them, let alone the possibility of doing
irrigation. It is also impossible for the proposed Mwananchi Settlement Scheme in the southern part of
Taita/Taveta District to be allocated to people because they have no way of getting water except by driving some
30 kilometres back to Mwatate.
There is also land in Buguta and the potential of some other land in Kilibasi area of Kwale District which
requires this type of water, in addition to the dams and pipes that I was talking about. It is important that the
Government finds the money and there are potential donors who can fund this project. Estimates have been done
regarding the cost of this project and overall, it is estimated that it will cost around US$15 million. This is a very
small amount of money, if the Coast Province wants to be given recognition by the Government. Unfortunately, a
lot of high value projects seem to be located away from the Coast Province and we do not seem to get correct
treatment, particularly since most of the people that are in Coast Province voted for KANU. Maybe, this is one
good opportunity for the Government to ensure that during the next election we get the majority of the leaders
from that area coming through KANU as a party. I am sure at that point hon. Mwakiringo would reconsider his
stand and go back to his home which is KANU, if this project was funded by the Government.
With those few remarks, I beg to second.
(Question proposed)
The Minister for Rural Development (Mr. M. Mohammed): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to support
1542 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
this Motion and thank the hon. Member for recognising the role played by the CDA in developing the areas under
its mandate. The Authority was established under an Act of Parliament, Cap 449 of the Laws of Kenya, and lies
with other five sister regional authorities. It is charged with the planning, co-ordination and implementation of
development projects in the whole of Coast Province which is an exclusive zone for connected purposes.
The CDA is a body corporate established under Section 449 of the Laws of Kenya whose powers include:
Suing and being sued; taking, purchasing or otherwise acquiring charges and disposing of movable and
immovable property; borrowing and lending of money; entering into contract and doing or performing all such
things or acts necessary for proper performance of its functions under the Act which may lawfully be done or
performed by a body corporate.
As per its mandate, the Authority initiated feasibility studies on Lake Challa by Afrisco Limited, an Israel
company funded by the Israeli Export Institute. The company, with the assistance of CDA, undertook studies in
preparation of project development proposals and plans. The results of the studies were that the projects were to be
implemented in Taita/Taveta and Nyika Plateau and would have the following benefits:-
(a) Irrigation of a total of 400 hectares, spread out as follows: Timbila, 100 hectares; Challa, 204
hectares; Jibe, 77 hectares and Makao, 21 hectares. Approximately, 1,700 Cubic Metres of water per hour would
be required to benefit approximately 30,000 people. Irrigation will not only enhance water supply but increase
food and livestock production for local consumption and export.
(b) Projects will have a positive impact on the tourism industry.
(c) Fishing in the lake will earn the locals revenue. Already, the Government has allocated 20 acres of
land to the Fisheries Department.
(d) Enhancing regional co-operation in utilising the interterritorial water resources through agreed
protocol; the lake lies between Kenya and Tanzania. The flow of water by gravity to Kilibasi and Kwala and to
Bamba in Kilifi District, both for farming and domestic use.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, due to budgetary constraints, the Government has been unable to give the
regional authorities sufficient funds to initiate and implement development projects. In this regard, the
Government undertakes to accept the Motion in principle, subject to the following amendment. I beg to move that
the Motion be amended as follows:-
By adding the words "source for funds" after the word "Government" in the fourth line.
I hope this will be acceptable to the Mover and Seconder of the Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. Members of Parliament
from Coast Province for supporting the CDA. This is the best run regional authority, among the five regional
authorities that we have. This is because of the good relationship existing between the Authority and the leaders of
the region.
With this slight amendment, I beg to support the Motion.
The Minister for Home Affairs, Heritage and Sports (Mr. Ngala): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to
second the amendment by the Minister for Rural Development.
I want to thank the Minister for supporting this Motion. I was of the opinion that we put in a sentence
which says "we source for funds to be able to implement what the Motion is talking about." It is good that the
Minister has remembered to come up with that amendment. We would like to support that amendment. The
positive indication from the Ministry shows that they will go out of their way to look for money from willing
donors who will be able to fund the project. So, it shows the interest that the Ministry has in this project.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, water is life and many a time we have been talking in this House about efforts to
provide water to the people of this country. The water available in Lake Challa is God-given and it would go a
long way in benefiting the people in the area and in the region. If we are going to use the same water for
irrigation, then we are going to assist our people a great deal. It is fashionable now in many countries to use
irrigation water. Rain-fed agriculture is now becoming a problem because the rains are not coming as expected.
So, if we are going to apply irrigation by using this water, we will be able to produce a lot of food. That area is
very good for horticultural crops and it will go a long way in creating employment for the people and the youth
and it would make the people more empowered to be able to produce and sell in order to make money within their
area. I am sure it will also go a long way in contributing into the building of infrastructure in that area. I am sure
if this project is undertaken with a view to helping the region and that area in particular, then there will be
improvement in the infrastructure. So, the amendment which the Minister has proposed does auger well for this
Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to thank the Minister for treating the CDA as a development
Authority. The CDA is doing its best and if it teams up with development partners like Afrisco who are interested
in developing the area under the scope of CDA, there will be a lot of improvement in the general development of
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1543
that area.
With those remarks, I beg to second the amendment.
(Question of the amendment, that the words to
be added be added, proposed)
The Vice-President (Prof. Saitoti): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion as amended.
But before I come to that point, I want to make reference to the fact that a Motion of this nature could not
have come to this House at a much better time. This is a time when this country is experiencing, perhaps, the
worst drought that it has ever known. There is no doubt that this drought, in terms of intensity and stretch, is
much worse that the drought that was there in 1984. In much greater part of the country, there is food shortage
and very few grazing fields. Indeed, we are now faced with a situation where more than two-thirds of the Kenyans
will need to be fed with relief food.
Therefore, this being the case, we need to take stock of things and ask ourselves how we can prepare
ourselves for another drought. We have seen that the drought does  seem to come into this country after a period
of ten years. We are also seeing that, because of the interference with the atmosphere due to the various gases
which are normally pumped into it, we cannot accept things to be otherwise. Climatic changes have become the
order of the day, not only in this country, but all over the world. We should, therefore, work out a strategy to
ensure that should a drought come, at least, we have water preserved for domestic use. We should also have water
in various places that should be used for irrigation for food and livestock production.
We should also take lessons from what other countries have done. In this case, I take cognisance of the
fact that the firm that worked very closely with the Coast Development Authority to produce this feasibility study,
that is referred to in the Motion, is an Israeli firm. Israeli is an extremely dry country; it is a semi-desert that does
not get much rain.  It is very sandy, yet, it is a country that not only produces sufficient food for its own people,
but it is also in a position to export agricultural products. Israel is very well known for exporting horticultural
products. If you go to various markets all over the world, you will see Israeli oranges being sold there. All these
agricultural produces are produced through irrigation. Israel is also on the forefront as a producer of cut flowers.
Indeed, our horticulture, as far as the cut flowers are concerned, has benefitted a great deal from the Israeli
experts. We never hear of Israel importing food. But what has it done? Israel has embarked on a deep irrigation,
which is a very economic use of water. Why can we not do the same?  Indeed, although this country is dry, it has
much greater potential than Israeli. We can produce food, not only to feed our people, but also for export. We can
be a major star in horticultural food and livestock production, if we could use the techniques that have been tried
and have become successful all over the world.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, even a country like Australia, a greater part of it known as Queensland, is an
extremely dry area. It produces a lot of cane for sugar, food crops and it is a fantastic place for livestock
production. This is once again done through irrigation. One also need not go far away here in Africa. When one
flies across South Africa he sees that that country is dotted with dams. Because of these dams, South Africa is
self-sufficient in food. Even at this time when we are having a major food shortage, South Africa has got surplus
food. It is also self-sufficient in livestock. That again has been possible because of the dams.
So, time has, therefore, come for us now to really re-tool our strategy for food production. There can be
no other way out. Taking into account that rain is unreliable, we have to embark on a major programme of
building dams. We should construct big and small dams so that whenever there is a little rainfall, then we are able
to conserve water for irrigation for both livestock and food production. There are very many wonderful natural
rivers which we only need to block, maybe, with stones. I want to say here that as I talk in terms of building dams,
we should also, in the spirit of poverty eradication, use labour. We can use labour to build some of the dams. Much
of the water is even blocked in the rivers by stones which are freely available. Through this, we can preserve a lot
of water.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we should also, as stated here, use water from the lakes. Other countries have
done so. Hon. Omamo is here and he represents a constituency which is not too far away from Lake Victoria,
which has a lot of fresh water. The biggest fresh water lake in Africa is in this country. What a paradox? We have
the biggest fresh water lake in Africa, yet, we do not have water in this country. I think we will have to put our
interests first, and also make use of Lake Victoria water. In saying this, I know it is not a hostile statement to our
friends in Sudan or Egypt because they depend on that water. But they must also understand that we have a major
problem of water. We should ensure that our people do not die, starve and we should find ways in which we can
also use Lake Victoria water.
In Nairobi today, we are rationing water because we have not had enough rainfall. The water level in our
1544 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
dams has gone down, yet there is a lot of water in Lake Victoria. We should, in one way or the other, use it. This
is something that we can discuss with those countries who also use that water, so that our people can have water.
If we have sufficient water reserves, this country can go very far. But above all, we should put a great deal of
emphasis on irrigation. That is the only way in which we will be self-sufficient in food.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I noted that the Minister, in moving his amendment, drew the attention of the
House to the fact that because there is not that much financing today, we should also ask the donors to help us. We
should ask our development partners to come in.  Since we know that we are about to open an new chapter with
our development partners, let us put it as a priority in our discussions with them, so that we are in a position to get
funding to pump out that water from the lake and feed the people who are suffering down there. This is because if
you go to Taita-Taveta District now, there are people who have got to travel long distances to get drinking water.
There are major problems there.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support the amendment.
Dr. Omamo: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you. I would like to support the amendment and in doing
so, appeal to the Minister and to the Government that we should be a government that learns from the past
mistakes so that they are not repeated. I am reminded of the great Bura Irrigation Scheme. It looked beautiful to
begin with, but it was a wrong design. The design was wrong. It was based on pumping water from the river to the
irrigation channels so that the day the pump is broken, the whole irrigation system must halt until the pump is
repaired.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have learnt the bitter way at Bura. The same thing was repeated at Ahero
Pilot Irrigation Scheme for rice. Again, a pumping scheme was installed to pump water from Nyando River into
the irrigation channels. As we are talking now, Ahero Irrigation Scheme is stranded. It is not just in the "ICU"; it
can hardly breathe in the "ICU". There is no cultivation. The machines and the equipment are there, but there is
no water. Why? Because of a faulty design. The whole of Ahero Pilot Scheme, West Kano and Bunyala Schemes
are in the same category. I would like to support what the Vice-President and the Minister have said except that
they should not repeat the past mistake. Let us check carefully, regardless of whether this design is from Israel or
not. Is it a feasibility study that is going to stand the test of 10 to 20 years? Bura Scheme has not and it has got to
be rehabilitated now using lots of money.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not seen this feasibility study which the Coast Development Authority
(CDA) and an Israeli firm co-operated to produce. I do not know whether it was laid on the Table. But if it was
not, before you begin sourcing for funds, it would be good for the Minister to study it critically, to see whether it is
going to benefit the communities there and areas further down. This is because if the design is going to be like that
of Mwea Rice Irrigation Scheme, then, I as a person, Omamo, would say: "Tick, correct". That is, it is designed so
that the water from the mountains trickles down and it has just got to be directed this way or that way, and the
whole irrigation scheme is watered. This is why rice is doing very well in Mwea with very good results. We have
pishori which is very tasty rice. We only need to increase the acreage again and again. That is what I call in my
own language "Kaliech". With such schemes, Kenyans can get enough food.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I say this: Let the CDA be very critical. As a development authority, the CDA
should not behave like other authorities that we see around. I would like to support the Minister that through your
own study, you have pinpointed the CDA as a good authority. Well, you may be right. If it is, then it is
authoritative. If it is authoritative, it is able to command things to come and go. That is when it has authority.
However, sometimes I begin to wonder what all these authorities are doing when, for example, at the Coast, the
CDA is handling two crops that are precious to the country. The cashewnuts and anato bixa are grown in that
area. What has happened? Is this CDA authoritative or not? If it is authoritative, why have we not heard its voice
about cashewnuts and anato bixa?
Mr. Mwakiringo: And sugarcane at Ramisi!
Dr. Omamo: My friend is mentioning Ramisi and I quite agree with him because Ramisi is the only
area we have where you plant sugarcane today and within 12 months, you harvest it and the cane is full of sweet
sucrose which is ready to be cut and milled. What is wrong? Why are not hearing about the dilly-dallying of these
projects? I would like to support this amendment because the Minister himself said that the Government is
prepared to go and source for funds. I agree. Let the Government do exactly that, but let the design be correct.
With these few remarks, I beg to support the amendment.
Mr. Sambu: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for this opportunity to contribute to this Private
Member's Motion. I support the amendment because it does not negate the original Motion. It only helps improve
it by putting in sourcing for funds.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, 80 per cent of our land surface is of low-agricultural potential. However, we
should thank God that we have a lot of rivers which originate from the highlands which contribute to the other 20
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1545
per cent of our land. However, lack of proper planning and implementation even where there is a good plan is
what is causing havoc in our nation. With all these rivers and the fertile land, and with water as the only
deficiency, it is sad that when there is drought our people starve. That is a very sad situation. It is sad that when
we have excess rains in the highlands, the people in the Kano plains and other areas are washed away by floods
simply because we cannot design and implement projects in a manner that will make us use the water
resourcefully.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if we do not plan and carry out irrigation projects, we will be going out year
after year to look for food donations.  We will be seeking food donations from nations which produce their own
food through irrigation.  Right now, we are hearing of rice from Egypt.  Why do we buy rice from Egypt and yet,
it uses our own water to produce the same?  Why can we not use our own water to produce our own rice?  It is a
sad situation because we spend billions of shillings on famine relief food.  When we hear the Office of the
President spending billions of shillings on relief food, what is the money for?  In their Development Expenditure,
we do not see a single irrigation project.  In my view, irrigation is the only way that will help Kenya to come out
of the persistent and consistent shortages of food and floods, which occur when natural calamities strike.  We
cannot blame the Almighty God by saying some things which have been said.  Nobody has got a contract with the
Almighty God on whether the rains should come or not.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the food policy of this nation must be harmonised.  It must include irrigation or
land reclamation from swamps, arid and semi-arid areas.  Arid lands must be made the focal point of our food
policy.  In the high agricultural potential lands, there is very high population.  If we open up new arid lands by
using our rivers like the Ewaso Nyiro, Mara and Tana - although Tana River is being used and the schemes which
were implemented earlier were not well designed - we will continue suffering.  If we do not do this, there will be a
population explosion in the high potential areas.  We will continue begging for food year-in, year-out, when we
can produce our own food.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, environmental protection is very important.  But at the moment, we have seen
what has happened to Lake Victoria.  We did not protect Lake Victoria. We allowed the lake water to be messed
up.  We have the Lake Victoria Environmental Management Project going on now.  But what is it doing?  It is
just wasting the loan funds from the World Bank.  We have to protect the lake by protecting the catchment areas.
We have to protect the catchment areas in Rift Valley, Western and Nyanza Provinces.  We have to protect the
rivers.  We have to do something about the Nyando River.  Right now, we are claiming that we cannot generate
enough electricity. We cannot generate enough electricity because we concentrated all our hydro-electric plants
in Tana River.  But we have other rivers which are on the wind-ward side of Lake Victoria.  We have rivers like
Nzoia, Yala, Nyando, Sondu-Miriu and Mara.  Why can we not use them for hydro-electric power generation and
irrigation?  We will also help to control floods.  I want to tell the Management of the Lake Victoria Project to use
some of the money from the World Bank to carry out protective measures in the catchment areas, particularly in
my own Nandi District, which is an important catchment area for the Yala, Nzoia and part of Nyando River.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we understand that there will be some hydro-electric power projects on the
Mara River.  I want to warn those who are planning those projects that, they will mess up the eco-system of the
Mara River.  They will pump water from the lake for hydro-electric generation and divert it completely into the
saline lake of the Rift Valley.  There are better rivers like Yala, Nyando and Nzoia, where hydro-electric power
generation can be done.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, talking about the specific area where I come from, that is around Nandi Hills, if
we do not review the land policy, we will be faced with a population explosion in future.  The colonialists who are
still there are expanding their tea estates without caring about the environment.  They are expanding their tea
plantations deep into the valleys.  They are also causing a lot of damage to the squatters. They have pushed the
squatters to the Nandi Escarpment.  The squatters are destroying the Nandi Escarpment.  The rivers which start
from the Nandi Escarpment flow down with a lot of soil erosion.  The Government must bring a change to the
land policy in this country.  It should look at my area where the colonial tea companies do not care about the
long-term effects to the environment.  Those tea companies must know that the forests they are destroying are the
same forests which bring life to Lake Victoria, Western Province and Kenya as a whole.  The climatical
behaviour of the Western region will be affected if the lake is affected.  The Government must control those tea
companies.  If it does not want to do so, I will tell the Nandi people to stop those colonial companies.  After all,
they robbed that land from the Nandi people.  If the land was robbed in 1906, when did it cease to be a robbery?
When does a robbery cease to be a robbery?  The land was robbed from the Nandi people in 1906.  It was good
forest land.  Now, those tea companies have destroyed it.  Is it because of the 1902 Crown Lands Ordinance
which was put in place by the colonialists?  Is it because of the 1915 amendment to the Crown Lands Ordinance?
The Government must do something about our land and environment.  Why is it that, where there are white men,
1546 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
they are allowed to destroy the environment?  Look at what they have done in Samburu and Laikipia! They deny
those poor Samburus to graze their animals for a few months.  Then, they are pushed to the Mt. Kenya forest to
destroy the environment.  There will be no rivers flowing out of Mt. Kenya.  What happened is that when they
grazed their animals in the Mt. Kenya forest, they all died after destroying the environment.  The Mzungus who
ruled us are enjoying all the freedom in Laikipia, with one individual controlling over 50,000 acres of land.
Where are we living?  I do not want to predict, but I foresee the Zimbabwe situation happening here in Kenya.
You wait for the year, 2002 to come! We shall invade those farms!
Thank you.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!  I think for the sake of good order, I should now put the
Question on the amendment so that we can debate the Motion as amended.
(Question, that the words to be added be
added, put and agreed to)
(Question of the Motion as amended proposed)
Mr. Wamae: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this
very important Motion as amended. It is very important that we do consider the question  of availability of food
for our people. The present drought should be a very big lesson to all Kenyans, and we should make sure that we
shall never be caught in the same situation again. The only way we can ensure that food would be available is by
having irrigation programmes.
This irrigation programme in Taita-Taveta which will cover one whole sub-district would be very useful,
particularly with the technology from Israel, which is very good in the preservation of water. They have the drip
system of irrigation which uses very little water, but does very good work for the crops. That is what we need.
Overhead irrigation system is very wasteful because most of the water evaporates as you irrigate. But drip system
of irrigation, although initially expensive, is very economical on the use of water. So, with the technology from
Israel, this should be a very viable project. I am wondering why, since 1994, the Government has not implemented
this project. They cannot say they do not have the resources; they have had the resources. If there was Kshs65
billion used for the Goldenberg scandal; if there was money for the bullets factory in Eldoret; if there was money
for buying an executive Presidential Jet costing over Kshs2 billion, and many other of these other schemes which
are useless, why has there not been money for irrigation? It is inconceivable that the Government finds money for
all those other funny projects which are not helping the people of Kenya, and they cannot find money for irrigation
schemes and not only for this one, but for all other irrigation schemes in the country. We want the Government to
implement this programme and look for money from any source. We want the Government to rehabilitate the Bura
Irrigation Scheme which, as hon. Dr. Omamo has said, was wrongly conceived.
The question of pumping water is expensive and can only be a viable solution for irrigation. We should
encourage the use of gravitational force to get water to the canals instead of pumping it. I think the Minister for
Water should consider this very seriously. Even in Ahero Irrigation Scheme, why pump water instead of tapping
the water from the hills where it comes from and use it for irrigation without using any energy to pump it? There
are many other cheap irrigation projects which can be established all round Mt. Kenya, Aberdares and other hills.
We should go for these micro-irrigation schemes which cater for 2,000 to 3,000 families with very low capital
investment. The Ministry of Water should have experts within itself to advise farmers in all those areas to do so.
The whole of Kieni in Nyeri, and other parts around Mt. Kenya are very suitable for irrigation.
But to get sufficient water, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we need to study the question of preservation of
water. We need dams upstream; we need dams in Mt. Kenya Forest to hold the water, so that during the dry
seasons, there is enough water to come down through the irrigation programmes. If we are not going to do that, we
are going to have irrigation schemes which would only be useful during the rainy season. But there is very little
water during the dry season, which cannot be used for irrigation. So, we need dams in all the streams and rivers
around Mt. Kenya and Aberdares to hold the water, so that we have enough water during the dry season. Also, this
would help prevent siltation in Tana River by having upstream dams. One of the problems we are having even
with energy is not that there is no water in Tana River; it is siltation that has mostly taken the place of water.
Therefore, there is no pressure for water. Even if the rains come down today, we will not have enough pressure to
fully utilise our Tana River Hydro-electric Programme because of siltation. Nobody has thought even how we are
going to solve that problem. I have not heard the Minister for Energy or the Minister for Water stating what they
are going to do to remove the siltation from the Seven Forks Dam on Tana River. That is the real problem.
Siltation in our hydro-electric dams is the major problem we are facing today. We need dams upstream and the
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1547
Ministries of Agriculture and Water should work together to prevent soil erosion upstream, so that soil does not
come down and silting our hydro-electric schemes. If we are going to prevent siltation from our hydro-electric
schemes, we are going to have this problem of power year after year. It is very expensive to desilt the dams. If you
go to Masinga Bridge which we cross when going to our constituencies, you can clearly see the siltation there. The
soil has built up on both sides of the river and where the water used to be, now it is soil. That siltation must be
removed if we are going to have the reservoir holding water to move the turbines.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have always been saying that water from Lake Victoria must be used. We
have to do it and tell the Egyptians that we have to use the water first, to feed our people before we can let it go
down to them. Why can we not pump that water to Timboroa and irrigate almost the whole of Rift Valley
Province? If we can pump oil from Mombasa up to Kisumu, Eldoret and Kampala, we can pump the water from
Lake Victoria to Timboroa. If the water is pumped to Timboroa, we can irrigate from there by gravity, the whole
of Rift Valley and most of Nyanza and Western provinces. If we can do that, we will be the granary for the world.
We would be feeding the whole world instead of being beggars, whereby every time, our President has to appeal to
the world for food. People will be appealing to us to give them food if we can use the water from Lake Victoria.
We can irrigate the whole of Rift Valley and Western Kenya by pumping that water to Timboroa and to all the
other hills around the Lake Basin and let the water flow by gravity. We will be able to employ all the labour force
which is unemployed and all the university graduates will get jobs. We will have plenty of food, and then we can
feed the whole world.
The only reason we are not doing this is lack of creativity by this KANU Government. They do not think
about anything else except corruption. They are very busy taking the little money we have instead of generating
wealth. This is why we are in this mess. Why can they not think the same way and use the same ingenuity they use
in corrupt deals to solve the economic problems of this country? Why can they not concentrate in finding ways of
producing more food by irrigation? Why can we not have proposals for irrigation? How many projects have we
had in this House for the Ministers, stating that we should approve borrowing for irrigation projects? This is not a
joking matter, particularly when Kenyans are hungry, and hungry people are angry people. Kenyans are angry not
because there is a drought, they are angry against this government because it has not prepared them for such
calamities. We should never be caught again with our pants down. This should be the last time this should
happen. We should set programmes ready and have sufficient food because we have irrigation and we have
preserved our water. Egypt is using water from Kenya and they are now selling rice to us.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you read today's papers; they have prevented our tea from going to Egypt
because we had refused to buy their rice. They are producing more rice than Kenya using the water from Lake
Victoria. We do not have enough rice in Kenya because we cannot utilise our own water. This is a shame. We
hope that when the Minister comes to reply, he will tell us what they are going to do. We will support any
Government or person who comes up with a project which will ensure that we have enough projects to preserve
and produce food for our people, now and in future.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
The Minister for Water Development (Mr. Ng'eny): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving
me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Motion is very important to me for many reasons. First, it is important
because it talks about water and, as we all know, water is one of the most important elements which support life.
For a long time we have taken water for granted, although we normally know that it is very essential. But in the
last few months, I believe every Kenyan, has appreciated the importance of water for sustaining the ordinary life of
living things, including human beings.
Water is essential for domestic use, livestock development, agricultural development and every living
thing on this earth. It is, therefore, very crucial that, when a Motion of this kind comes before this House, as
patriotic citizens of this country we should give a lot of consideration in supporting the Motion. Water is not only
important for the Taveta area, but it has a lot of implications for all Kenyans. As I said before, water is useful for
agricultural development. But what is most important is that Kenyans are now experiencing the worst drought in
the last 40 years. We have never seen such a thing and because of that fact alone, all the plants and projections
have been affected. This is because, even as we are talking now, the level of water in every dam in this country has
gone down such that, nobody knows what may happen next. God forbid! Nobody knows what will happen if there
are no rains in the months of October and November this year.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, even the aquifers; the ground water resources, are declining every day because
there is no re-charge. Aquifers are always re-charged by rain water but because there are no rains, underground
water levels are going down daily. I would like to support hon. Members who spoke before me and said that
Kenyans should never be caught up in the same situation again because we now know that it is possible to miss
1548 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
rains, not even for one year, but for two years or even three years! We have no projections or estimates for water
and, therefore, there will be no water.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I, as the Minister in charge of water, have talked with my colleagues and my
officers about this issue. We feel that we should not construct or design dams, but we should think in terms of
conservation and utilization of water. We should think in terms of large dams which will conserve water. I agree
with hon. Wamae that, even if we build large dams, without proper conservation of water by the farmers, officials
in charge of water, by water catchment boards and by the wananchi, those dams can still be silted. Although we
are thinking of designing large dams to hold enough water to last, at least, three years, in case of severe drought---
I would like to take this opportunity to remind hon. Members that the most important thing about water is about
its conservation in totality; conservation almost to a point of being religious about it!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have heard a few hon. Members mention in this House about pumping water.
We, in the Ministry, would like to discourage, as much as possible, the pumping of water because it is a very, very
expensive exercise. In most cases, the ordinary wananchi would not be able to afford the cost of power. So, any
scheme supplying water should try as much as it can to supply water through gravitational force; the God-given
power. Therefore, I would suggest that, when the scheme at Lake Challa commences, that aspect of pumping
should be looked at very, very carefully because it might be possible that a combination of both gravitational force
and pumping should be considered. Of course there are other places where there is nothing you can do except to
pump the water. Such places should be excepted from this arrangement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in appreciating this proposal, I would also like us to think and encourage
individual, private enterprise, co-operative societies and community water conservation initiatives. This is
because, in the final analysis, failure to do this has been one way of contributing to the water crisis. Traditionally,
we have understood roads, railways and other undertakings to constitute infrastructure. It is high time that we
considered water as an essential infrastructure.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I support.
Capt. Ntwiga: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this
debate. I stand to support the Motion with the proposed amendments. I feel bound to contribute to this Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, of course, this is my first time to contribute to a Motion in this House, having
made my maiden speech the other day. Therefore, in order to avoid being asked to introduce myself in the course
of my contribution, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself again, for the benefit of those hon.
Members who were not here when I made my maiden speech. I am hon. retired Captain Ntwiga, the Member of
Parliament for Nithi Constituency, Meru South District.
(Applause)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, water is life in the sense that you cannot live without it; it is an essential
commodity in life. It is water that has led to power rationing in this country, currently. Water is also being
rationed in Nairobi today. Some pastoralists have taken their livestock herds to Mount Kenya in search of pasture.
Thus, water is, indeed, life. It is, therefore, very important that the Government thinks of conserving this essential
commodity for all the purposes I have just indicated. Conservation of water will enable us to avoid the current
problems this country is experiencing, which include famine and power rationing, which has disrupted many
economic activities.
Water conservation will enable us to put in place micro-irrigation projects all over the country. The
establishment of such schemes does not need foreign funding. It is a matter of this House voting for funds for the
initiation of those projects in every constituency, so that people there can have water for domestic use as well as
irrigation, and the establishment of micro-electric projects to add power to the national grid. Conservation of the
water that drains into the Indian Ocean during the rainy seasons, and that which percolates into the ground, can
help to change the lifestyles of people in North Eastern Province, and other pastoralists. This way, it will not be
necessary for some pastoralists to take their livestock to Mount Kenya in search of pastures. If we could come up
with some legislation that would create district water conservation committees, just as we have the District Roads
Committees for the improvement of rural roads, water conservation efforts would have an impetus at grassroots
level.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, poverty eradication cannot start from nowhere. The efforts to eradicate poverty
in this country must start at the grassroots level. The common person at the grassroots level carries all the wealth
of this nation. If we address these issues right from the grassroots level, we can eradicate poverty effectively in this
country. The only way to achieve this objective is by conserving the water that drains into the Indian Ocean and
use it for irrigation purposes. This will, in turn, help the common person to generate revenue for this country. So,
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1549
it is important that the Ministers for Agriculture and Water Development address this issue very seriously. Let us
not look at big projects. Let us come down to earth and look for ways of improving the standards of living of the
common man at the village level. As I have said, the wealth of this nation originates there; without those people,
we could not be here.
[Mr. Deputy Speaker left the Chair]
[The Temporary Deputy Speaker
(Mr. Poghisio) took the Chair]
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I feel very sad that 10 rivers cross my constituency from the eastern
slopes of Mount Kenya, draining all its waters and the rich soils it carries with it into the Indian Ocean. This is
very discouraging; this matter must be addressed seriously. We do not need to do any earth excavation to retain the
water that drains into the Indian Ocean. We only need to construct concrete barriers across those rivers to divert
that water into some reservoirs to be stored for use in times of drought, as it is now.  So, before we start looking
for international donors, we should address the question of creating micro-projects in the rural areas. It would not
even be necessary to pump water into those irrigation projects. Because people in the rural areas are jobless, they
are willing to use such water to irrigate their plots manually, so that they can grow food for their subsistence.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, several hon. Members here have talked of tapping water from big
water bodies such as Lake Victoria for the purpose of irrigation. This has been talked about over a number of
years, but nothing has happened. My appeal to the Ministries of Planning, Agriculture and Rural Development,
and Water Development is that we should think of developing small-scale irrigation projects rather than dream of
establishing big irrigation projects and start looking for donors, who might not be forthcoming.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, around Mt. Kenya, for example, you do not need extra expenses for
pumping of this water. You only need gravitational methods of irrigation. Therefore, with that kind of irrigation,
it becomes less expensive and creates job opportunities for our people and increased revenue for this country. At
the moment, there is a lot of pressure on land because of population explosion.
(Loud Consultations)
Mr. Poghisio: Order! Order! I think we should give the hon. Member an opportunity to be heard. So,
consult in low tones.
Capt. Ntwiga: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think hon. Members are excited because I am a
new Member of Parliament.
I was talking about creating job opportunities for our people in the current population explosion. So, by
starting these projects in the rural areas, it is going to be very helpful to our young men who are idling in the
villages.
I beg to support.
Mr. Kiunjuri: Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. This is a very important Motion and I
beg to thank the hon. Member who has moved it.
The Taveta area is one of the areas in Coast Province endowed with abundant water resources. We are
aware that studies have been carried out and are still being carried out. We hope the Government will implement
the reports of those studies because a lot of public funds have been used and at the same time, it would be of great
importance to the nation. If we exploit water resources, it would relieve Government from borrowing and at the
same time counter the drought situation we have in this country.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, currently, the Government is pleading with donors to give Kshs10
billion for food. I wonder how sensible the Government is when it borrows Kshs10 billion to feed the nation for
only six months or one year, whereas this money could be used to irrigate the whole country and promote food
production. For over nine years, we have been able to "tighten our belts" without aid from the IMF and World
Bank. I am sure those in Government who are corrupt are now waiting for the resumption of aid so that they  can
misuse it, whereas we could put it into irrigation. This is a Government which is used to consumption without
replenishing; harvesting where it did not sow or consuming fish without having a rod to catch the fish. That is the
problem we have. That is why when we talk about food situation in this nation, we cannot convince anybody that
we have a problem in Kenya. This is because the problem lies in our planning; we are poor managers; a reckless
Government that cannot take care of even a 10 cents and use it in a proper way.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have heard about this Government using any funds available to
1550 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
blackmail Kenyans, the same way foreigners blackmail them. Now, we have asked for Kshs10 billion assistance,
and it will be made available. I would like to assure this House that foreign governments will come in to assist us
now that we are in a crisis; they will give us Kshs10 billion, but if we request them to give us Kshs1 billion for
irrigation, they will not.  They are using this as a tool to oppress all African nations, so that we can only plead
with them. We think that we gained our Independence, but we are still colonised.  I would like to point out that
they will only come in to help us when we are dying; they will only come in to assist us when Kenya is faced with
a situation like Rwanda.  I would like to say that the Government is using food as a tool of oppression; they will
use famine relief food to acquire votes in Ukambaland, North Eastern Province and Coast Province. I would like to
assure this House that even if the Government carries out irrigation in this country, it will carry it out in areas
where we already have food so that it can rule us through oppression for time immemorial.
If you look at the Budget which was read in this House, you will find that it allocated a lot of money to
the Department of Defence and yet, we are not at war, and then the rest to State House and other funny projects
which do not assist Kenyans, not forgetting that they are dying of hunger. The military should use their equipment
to carry out irrigation in our nation, which they are not doing. Kenyans are dying of hunger today and yet, we
have lakes everywhere, for example, Naivasha, Turkana and Victoria. There is enough fish to feed this nation in
these lakes, but this Government cannot use all means available to feed the nation. This is a Government that is
not concerned with anything that exploits Kenyans or any situation that faces the nation.
Today, Kenyan white farmers, who have invested in horticulture, are exporting a lot of produce from this
nation while Kenyans who are indigenous people in this country cannot irrigate their farms. It is shocking that we
are calling for food assistance to feed the nation, when we are already exporting food. Today, if you go to Laikipia,
you will find that 62 per cent of the area is under horticulture. We are exporting food to other countries, while the
people of Laikipia cannot even irrigate a quarter acre of land today. All the water is being used by foreigners
because this Government is always on the streets in London begging for assistance. That is why they are being
blackmailed to an extent that they cannot tell them that Kenyans are dying. In fact, they are not even giving us the
exchange rate. What do they get out of the produce that they export from this nation? All that we do is to see them
enjoy the fruits of Kenyans, when Kenyans are languishing in poverty.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, an intelligent American, Franklin Roosevelt, decided to put in place
a five-year plan to feed the nation when things got tough in America.  Today, Israelis are coming to Kenya, which
is a foreign country, and all they are doing is to kill our agricultural sector. Banana production in Central Province
has declined and something has been done by foreigners so that we do not export them.  Orange and flower
production has declined because these crops have been poisoned by---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support the Motion.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Poghisio): Hon. Members, it is now time to call upon the Mover
to reply.
Mr. Mwakiringo: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with your permission, allow me to give Messrs.
Angwenyi and Ndwiga two minutes each of my time.
Mr. Angwenyi: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank hon. Mwakiringo for giving me two
minutes of his time to comment on this important Motion.  However, it is a pity that this House passes Motions
that are never implemented.  I urge the Government to implement this Motion expeditiously.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as has been explained by my colleagues, this Government is reactive
instead of being proactive. The Mover of this Motion has tried to make them proactive.  What can we do to save
our people from suffering as a result of famine and shortage of water in this country?  I urge the Government to
set aside some money, even if it is during the Revised Estimates, so as to assist the people of Taita-Taveta and the
Nyika Plateau.  The other day, when we went to Mombasa by air, we saw elephants roaming about in the
wilderness in search of water.  We will destroy the tourism industry if we do not provide water to our wildlife and
our people.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we should take a cue from this Motion and provide water for
irrigation.  North Eastern Province, particularly Wajir District, is very fertile.  They only lack water for
irrigation.  They can produce enough food for this country, which will last for over 100 years.   Therefore, I am
supporting the Motion and I urge the Government to implement it immediately.
With those few remarks, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Ndwiga: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank hon. Mwakiringo for giving me two
minutes of his time to say a few things.  This Motion is very important and I call upon the Government to
implement it.  Lack of implementation of many Motions passed in this House has diminished the dignity of this
country.  For example, in the newspapers, we are reading about Egypt which has refused to buy tea from Kenya.
Yes, we should be ashamed of ourselves because Egypt is using our water to grow the rice that they want us to buy.
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1551
They are saying unless we buy their rice, they will not buy our tea.  Why should they hold us to ransom?  The
poor planning by this Government has led us to this kind of situation.  I listened to the Minister for Water
Development talking about conserving water and outlining measures of rationing it because of the current drought.
There is no water rationing in the United Arab Emirates and yet, they have no rivers.  They do not have water
rationing because of using adequately, the little resource they have.  There is no power rationing in Egypt.  They
are now exporting food to us.  We should be ashamed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the spirit of this Motion is very good.  It is sad because this
Government will not implement this Motion.  If they had implemented all Motions passed in this House, we
would not be in the kind of situation we are today.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, conservation of natural resources has been addressed here since
colonial days.  Our farmers were not allowed to farm three metres near the river but, today all our dams are silted
because we farm up to the river itself.  It is very sad that this has gone on for a long time, despite the fact that we
have a Ministry responsible for water development.  It is the recklessness of our Government that has plunged our
country into its current situation.
With those few remarks, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Mwakiringo: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Government and
various hon. Members for supporting this Motion.  First, I would like to thank hon. Mbela for seconding this
Motion.  I would also like to thank the Minister for Home Affairs, Heritage and Sports, Mr. Katana Ngala, for
supporting the amendment by the Government, and the Minister for Water Development, Mr. Ngeny', the
Vice-President, Prof. Saitoti, and humorous hon. Omamo.  I would also like to thank Messrs. Sambu, Wamae,
Ntwiga, Kiunjuri, Angwenyi and Ndwiga for supporting this Motion.  This Motion is also giving a new image to
our nation; that, when it comes to national issues, we come together as hon. Members of the Kenya National
Assembly rather than on partisan issues.  I would want to congratulate all hon. Members for supporting this
Motion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we would like to see that the Government takes this project seriously
and incorporates it into the Development Plan for the years 2000-2005.  The
should see to it that whatever Coast Development Authority will initiate in looking for donor funding for this
project is fully supported and guaranteed by the Government.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this project is going to ease the insecurity along the
Taveta-Mwatate-Voi Road because there will be a lot of traffic along that road and people will engage themselves
in farming activities.  There will be a lot of traffic along that route, and it will eradicate poverty because our
youths will be involved in agricultural activities. The revival of the ranches will take effect, and we will have
horticultural crops and vegetables for export.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would want to support the idea of the Vice-President that we
should not look at stagnant lakes like Lake Challa, but we should use the resources in Lake Victoria. We should
tap that water for either irrigation in our country, or create artificial waterfalls and rivers in order to generate
electricity for this country, so that we do not have the artificial energy shortages in this country. I think that should
be taken seriously so that we do not have shortages of that kind.
I would want to say that the spirit of this Motion was purely not to benefit the Coast people as a whole,
but as I said, it can also, and it will, with proper feasibility studies and implementation, benefit the Eastern
Province because the water from that lake is too much and the equilibrium, as I said, of the water level will not be
affected by the pumping out of the 300 million cubic metres per hour.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would not want to take much time, and with those few remarks, I
beg to move.
(Question of the Motion as amended put and agreed to)
Resolved accordingly:
THAT, in view of the fact that Kenya is experiencing continuous food shortages due to
continued drought; and taking into consideration that water from rivers and lakes could be used
for irrigation and other domestic use, this House urges the Government to source for funds to
implement the pre-feasibility studies undertaken by Afrisco firm of Israel and the Coast
Development Authority in 1994-1995, in order to pump water from Lake Challa in Taveta
Sub-District for domestic, irrigation and livestock use in the Taita-Taveta District and the Nyika
plateaus.
1552 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Poghisio): Next Order!
SELECT COMMITTEE FOR REPARATIONS TO
POLITICAL PERSECUTION VICTIMS
Mr. Kihoro: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-
THAT, noting with grave concern the persecution of political dissenters by the Government
between 1965 and 1991, when Kenya was either a de facto or a de jure one-party State; aware
that some Kenyans were arrested, harassed and detained without trial, this House, in the spirit of
unity and reconciliation, resolves:
(a) that the Government should unconditionally apologise to all those whose political and human
rights were violated during the period and a national honours list be prepared accordingly;
(b) that compensation be paid out to those arbitrarily arrested, harassed or detained without trial;
(c) that in the event the person died or has since died, the compensation be paid posthumously to
his/her next of kin, estate or bona vacatia to the State; and
d) that a Parliamentary Select Committee to determine the identity of the victims and the
quantum of compensation to be paid, be set up and that the following be Members of the said
Committee:
The Hon. G.M. Anyona, MP
The Hon. P.A. Awiti, MP
The Hon. M.A. Galgalo, MP
The Hon. Dr. Mukhisa Kituyi, MP
The Hon. A.N. Kathangu, MP
The Hon. Wanyiri Kihoro, MP
The Hon. F.N. Maina, MP
The Hon. Kiraitu Murungi, MP
The Hon. J.K. Munyao, MP
The Hon. (Mrs.) C.K.M. Ngilu, MP
The Hon. Prof. Anyang'-Nyong'o, MP
The Hon. Raila Odinga, MP
The Hon. G.M. Parpai, MP
The Hon. J.K. Sambu, MP
The Hon. A.I. Shaaban, MP
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a very important Motion to me. I never thought I would be
here to present it to the House, but it has happened. It is one of those miracles. I will start
with the 12th December, 1964, when the Government of President Kenyatta issued an amnesty to the Mau Mau to
surrender to the Kenya Government. The Mau Mau had taken to the forest to fight against colonial oppression,
misrule and domination of the Kenyan people. Some of the Mau Mau demanded to be given opportunity to own
some land in this country, to be absorded in the Civil Service and to be integrated in the Kenya Army, but that did
not happen. The Government sent the Kenya Army under the command of a British officer, hon. Brigadier
Hardy(?) who killed scores of the Mau Mau on the 28th January, 1965. Field Marshall Baimungi, General Kiugu
and General Shee (?) were among those who were killed. This action marked the beginning of the use of unlawful
and coercive measures against the patriotic people of Kenya. The then Minister for Defence, Dr. Njoroge Mungai,
is quoted by the Daily Nation of 14th January, 1965, as saying: "They are now outlaws, who will be pursued and
brought to punishment. They must be outlawed as well in the minds of all the people of Kenya."
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that begun a period of repression in this country. In May, 1966, a
law was introduced in this House to authorise detention without trial. Among those people who were expelled
from KANU then were patriotic people like the late Jaramogi Oginga Odinga, Bildad Kaggia and many others.
The Preservation of Public Security Act, Cap.57 of the Laws of Kenya was enacted, and provided for detention
without trial.  I have a list here of the people who have been detained in this country, from 1966 to 1991, and I
want to go through it for the record of this House. These people were:-
1. Patrick Peter Ooko
2. Benaiah Francis Franklin Oluande K'duol
3. James Gerrard Onyango Arigi
4. Japhetha Mbaja Oyangi
5. Wycliffe Rading Omolo
6. George Philip Ochola Mak'Anyengo
July 12, 2000 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 1553
7. Vicky Gillian Wachira
8. James Dennis Akumu
9. Joram Oyangi
10.Carolyn Okelo Odongo
11.Christopher Crowther Makhokha
12.John Keen
13.Ochola Achola
14.Lewis Wilkinson Kimani Waiyaki
15.Christopher Olande Were
16.Erastus Eric Obura
17.Fredrick Valentine Opwapo Ogai
18.Washington Aggrey Jalango Okumu
19.Somchand Punamchand Shah
20.Cyrus Wanjohi Kariuki
21.Munyui Kahuha
22.Muiruri Kabata
23.Odera Sar
24.Odieng Odera
25.George Philip Ochola Mak'Anyengo
26.Ondiek Chilo
27.Jeremiah Apiyo Onyango
28.Okelo Odongo
29.Solomon Obeid Oiro
30.Achieng Oneko
31.John David Kali
32.James Bernard Alexander Ohanga
33.Oginga Odinga
34.Joseph Mwanzia Nthula
35.Daniel Joshua Koro Koro
36.Joseph Daniel Owino
37.Okuto Bala
38.Luke Obok
39.Wesonga Sijeyo
40.Peter Kihara alias Peter Young
41.Gideon Waweru Gathunguri
42.Simon Musau Mbuvi
43.Ochola Achola
44.Adango Agutu
45.Benn Ochieng
46.Tsuma Washe alias Kajiwe
47.Lawrence Were
48.Munga Mukoli Katama
49.Lawrence Boniface Mwanzia
50.Adam Mathenge Wang'ombe
51.Moffat Muthee Munyara
52.Michael Koigi Wamwere
53.Marie John Seroney
54.Joseph Martin Shikuku
55.Ruel Thairu Muthiga
56.Peter Gicheru Njau
57.Charles Mwangi Mahinda
58.Charles Gikonyo Rukungu
59.Fredrick Colman Omondi s/o Enos Oyoo
60.Apollo Washington Juma
61.Michell Muhoro Muthoga
62.Samson Musila Nthiwa
1554 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2000
63.Gideon Munyao Mutiso
64.Ahmed Salim Bahamarhiz alias Kiboko
65.George Moseti Anyona
66.Dagane Galal Mohamoud alias Dagame Galal
67.Haji Mahat Kuno Roble
68.Duale Roble Hussein
69.Ibrahim Ali Omar
70.Ali Dubat Fidhow
71.Ngugi Wa Thiong'o
72.Mohamed Dahir Digale
73.Mohamed Nurie Hanshi
74.Sugow Ahmed Adan
75.Ahmed Shurie Abdi alias Ahmed Shrie Stamboul
76.Mohamed Abdille Hadow
77.Mwangi Stephen Muriithi
78.George Moseti Anyona
79.John Mugalasinga Khaminwa
80.David Mukaru Ng'ang'a
81.Alamin Mohamed Kassim Mazrui
82.Kamoji Kang'aru Wachira
83.Edward Akong'o Oyugi
84.Michael Koigi Wamwere
85.Willy Munywoki Mutunga
86.Raila Amolo Odinga
87.Otieno Mak'Onyango
88.Alfred Vincient Otieno
89.Ngotho Kariuki
90.Kiriuki Gathitu
91.Gacheche Wa Miano
92.David Mukaru Ng'ang'a
93.Patrick Ouma Domian Onyango alias Paddy Onyango
94.Dr. George Katama Mkangi
95.Wanyiri Kihoro
96.Isreal Otieno Wesonga Agina
97.Mirugi Kariuki alias Stephen
Mirugi Kariuki
98.Gibson Kamau Kuria
99.Paul Ong'or Amina
100.Raila Amolo Odinga
101.Samuel Okumu Okwany
102.Richard Obuon Guya
103.Isreal Otieno Wesonga Agina
104.Charles Wanyoike Rubia
105.Kenneth Matiba Njindo
106.John Mugalasinga Khaminwa
107.Raila Oginga Odinga Alias Aluo
Oginga Odinga
108.Gitobu Imanyara
109.Ibrahim Mohamed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this list is official and it can be obtained from the Kenya Gazette. I
will continue from there next time.
ADJOURNMENT
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Poghisio): Order, hon. Members! It is now time for interruption
of business. This House now stands adjourned until this afternoon at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 12.30 p.m.